Opinion: Leaf of Vaka is too overpowering

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 9:32 PM

So I just came back to eggcave recently. I’ve been here since the old eggcave layout and the release of the Macbots/doovoos. I’ve seen so much change on this site and not all in good ways. But there is hope! This is my opinion at least. No need for any fighting or arguing or insulting. 😊 This is all kinda just a ramble sorry in advance! Correct me if I am not aware of something. 😊

I have a suggestion that would help boost the eggcave economy, bring in more revenue for eggcave staff, dissuade players form becoming inactive, and improve chances for trading due to accelerated rates that new creatures would gain value. There would be more active players and more new players.

Anyways I noticed this site has been slow and there’s a lot of issues in relation to rarity and values. People have been saying its difficult to trade for older creatures and some people are unhappy with rereleases because they traded a ton to get it before rerelease. (Me included but I’ll suck it up) Anyways I think both sides are valid. I know eggcave staff is working to fix the economy as well while still trying to stay afloat with Cave Cash Shop as funding.

From what I see, I think the biggest change that would help stimulate the economy while provide continual support through the Cave Cash Shop would be to change the system of the Leaf of Vaka. It is honestly too overpowering for being only worth 500cc.
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Creature’s rarity goes up when creatures die. (Yes sad, but true) it is quite a necessary component of the economy here. With everyone being able to get a leaf of vaka because it is so cheap, this component of the economy is almost completely disabled. Probably the only people who can’t afford a leaf of vaka are the newbies and most likely only have commons or recent LE in the first place. Every account with an older valuable creature would most likely have one.

1. Complete immortality for an unlimited # of creatures for only 500cc is too cheap.
2. There should be an expiration date for the Leaf of vaka. (Lasting only a month after it was bought)

This way people would be less inclined to take year long hiatus because at least they would have to revisit their account to repurchase a leaf of vaka once a month and possibly become interested in rejoining the site. It will also cause more people to try to immortalize their creatures again. Right now I dont see any incentive to getting my creatures over level 1000 or 2000 (I cant even remember what the immortality level is. Whoops) this would mean more people feeding and actually caring for their pets. Overall, more active players!!

While it is sad that more pets would be able to die, it would allow for your recently bought or found creatures to gain value quicker over time. Right now I dont see how value goes up over time other than when people decide they are too attached to trade the creature. Creatures gaining value quicker allows higher trading potential for newbies and more of a chance for anyone to trade for their dream creatures. When trading is easier, we wont feel so hopeless and might actually continue playing eggcave rather than quitting. I would not worry so much about the old rare creatures getting rarer since they’ve been around so long they are most likely already immortal or stuck in an inactive account so you wouldn’t even be able to trade for them anyways.

Also if Leaf of Vaka only lasts a month, People would have to buy it more often. Even for 500CC for a month, I find it worth the price. Maybe it is too high though for some so maybe reduce it to 200cc for a month? Or let us choose how long we want the leaf of vaka for. (Ex: pay 600cc for 3 months of immortality)

Who even uses Tim’s food shop anymore? But if this were in place I suggest making the price for Tim’s higher or reducing the price of leaf of vaka. (Maybe I’m wrong but i remember it to be worth 200cc before) eggcave staff would be able to make more money to fund staff like artists and programmers to improve the site. Let’s be real and understand that this site needs funding. I’m not suggesting this to make players spend more money and make Ian rich LOL

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Yea it sucks that people spent CC on the leaf of vaka hoping it would last forever (I also have 4 of them myself), but continuing this way I only see more people quitting and eggcave slowly diminishing because the impossibility of trading and obtaining dream creatures. Obviously eggcave needs a big kick in the butt to gain momentum again. Tine rerelease brought some excitement, but we need more long term measures that affect all creatures, not just one.

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I personally am not very active and I have a ton of mortal creatures. I cant even feed because my iPad and internet is so slow. I also dont know how long I will be active on here for so by suggesting this I am putting my own creatures at risk for dying. I’ll just have to make sure I’m never gone for longer than a month or something if I still want to come back to living creatures. This sucks for people like me, but I see that its worth it for the economy. Inactive people like me shouldn’t just be able to hop on randomly, stock up on monthly CCs, and disappear for a while hoping they gain value on their own. #truth LOL

subie • 16 April 2020 at 10:13 PM

@yogurt
I completely agree with you! I've always thought that the price of 500CC was far too low for an item that would guarantee your cove infinite immortality. I see so many users gradually forget about this game as they no longer have to ensure the happiness of their creatures with a Leaf of Vaka.

birdsong • 16 April 2020 at 10:23 PM

I'm not quite sure I fully agree. I mean I agree that it's pretty op. But it's quite useful especially for those who can really afford cc and obtain it only from trades and giveaways. Also, just stating my thoughts here, there may be people who are pretty busy, like me personally, I visit the hospital quite a lot and may be inactive. I get that it's over powered, but it also assures users that their creatures are safe while they are away. Like I think there were are people who have returned from a few years of hiatus. It's nice to see the creatures are well and healthy. There is that reviving thing, but it may cost a user a lot to revive all those dead creatures. I dunno, just my thoughts.

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 10:33 PM

@subie right. its much more of an incentive to come back when you know the creatures will need you or they will die. Sad that creatures are going to die more, but its already kinda sad how many creatures are in non-active coves basically abandoned

@birdsong I just returned from a few years as well. And while its nice that my creatures are here I noticed a lot of my friends are gone. Many people dont feel the need to come back on much since they know their creatures dont need their presence to stay alive. Eggcave would be much more fun with more active players. 😊 If a player knows they will be on hiatus for a couple of months, maybe the Leaf of Vaka could be purchased in the same way that Tim’s food shop is set up. (Ex: I will be gone for 4 months so I purchase 4 months worth of leaf of vaka) That would help the people who need to go away but are intending to return right?
We have to remember that before we only had an option to pay EC for Tim’s food shop. Now we have the option of paying CC. We also have the option to revive creatures. This is already so much in comparison to before. Thanks for reading through this by the way 😊 hopefully something can be figured out for everyone.

pwuffy • 16 April 2020 at 10:37 PM

@yogurt i actually agree completely, its something i've been thinking about a lot recently 😊 why do we have tims food shop, immortality, AND leaf of vaka? it doesn't make much sense to me personally. you could argue that vaka costs CC and tims costs EC, but the two are interchangeable via trading. i think a temporary leaf of vaka would be a decent fix for those who may not have the EC to put all their non-immortals in tims, but are willing to spend CC. but to be honest, i'm not really sure leaf of vaka needs to exist at all... although i do understand not everyone would agree with that so i think a compromise would be good 😊

leaf of vaka also allows people to abandon their account with no fear of their creatures ever dying. while it is completely in their right to not trade away their creatures, i know that back in the day, before the leaf of vaka existed (or even before immortality existed), if a user was quitting or taking a break they would more often than not give away their creatures to friends who WERE still active. i think that this encouraged trading a lot more. trading older creatures has gotten quite stagnant, and part of this is because there are old accounts that havent been logged into in years with many creatures sitting on them. of course, they don't always have leaf of vaka, sometimes they just have immortal creatures, and like i said, it is perfectly fine for them to not want to trade their hard-earned creatures (i have left for extended periods of time with valuable immortals on my account still before, too!). but it might stimulate the trading economy more, or even encourage players to stay more active! i hope that makes sense! sorry i got a bit ramble-y, i'm kinda tired so i'm not sure if all of that makes sense lol

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 10:49 PM

@pwuffy yes made sense! I’m glad you understood me as well since the whole thing was just me rambling LOL no organization whatsoever haha

I’m taking a college course class on persuasive writing but i threw everything out the window when writing this XD

ravensong • 16 April 2020 at 10:53 PM

I'm really glad to have the Leaf of Vaka for my mortal creatures. I don't have much time or ec to feed and evolve my creatures until they are immortalized. Knowing that I have it, I can stress less as I working on immortalizing/evolving them. I do get frustrated when I see people who have been gone for years and have all these amazing creatures just sitting there. Maybe, instead of having the Leaf expire after a length of time of inactivity?

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 10:55 PM

@ravensong ohhh I see. I haven’t thought about that. Not sure how that would be implemented but that is also an option I think would help. 😊

Deleted • 16 April 2020 at 10:59 PM

@yogurt What you say about the LoV is true. It's kind of overpowered but I think should it last finitely, it's price definitely should be lowered too. Maybe not only one month expiration date, perhaps 3-6? That way, people would have to come back once in a while.

Next, speaking of trading potentials. If creatures gain higher trading potential, it means that older creatures would shoot up even more and more. Frankly 13kCC for a Yuki. It's a bit too much for me. Should there be an official site guide? But suggestions to increase the worth can be allowed, within given reason. Like should there be a huge demand in the market, not just because it XX years old creature. I mean, that can be factored in too..

Welp, what do you think about the Essence of Litsdnats? To me, it's a bit much. I would prefer 100CC each. Same goes to Uneternal Youth Potion and Potion of Rebirth. Because, the creatures are still alive. And the user is changing the features to suit their liking, not reviving dead ones. If there's a huge increase in the price, just set it as including the fee when you trade, no doubling it or anything.

P.s Sounds cool that you're taking a course on persuasive writing. 😊

ethereality • 16 April 2020 at 11:10 PM

@yogurt I agree it's kind of overpowered, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Rereleasing tines in such an easy-to-obtain is overpowered. But everybody benefits, so it's fine. Nobody's harmed in the Leaf of Vaka's overpoweredness if that makes sense and it lets me rest assured that my creatures will not die even if I have an emergency or something.

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 11:10 PM

@playermocha345 for the trading values aspect: well I think most of the older creatures are probably or most likely in the immortal level range so are less likely to die and get rather. I mean they’ve been around so long that by now they should be at such a level if their owner is active. This would let the newer creatures gain value however. Most of them are not immortal and when people see them less often their value should shoot up, making trading with them for older creatures more possible. Plus I think more creatures will be rereleased anyways so we can look to that to reset values or bring in even more fluctuation. hope that makes some sense. Haha idk It is my theory at least.

I’m not too sure about the prices of things actually. I feel like eggcave staff can ultimately decide after observing supply and demand. I’m barely returning so no Idea what actual prices should be haha just suggesting for there to be some change. Only thing I strongly believe in is that immortality for the whole cove forever for only 500cc is super cheappppp haha

Deleted • 16 April 2020 at 11:15 PM

@yogurt

Do you think there's anything else that should be done to discourage inactive players? Perhaps, a report to the mods that they'll be inactive for X amount of time, so please treat my account as active until then? It is a bit frustrating to see accounts with users gone for a year or 2..

Immortality for 500CC is cheap, not that I haven't taken advantage of it too.. You can buy 1 CSP for it. And keep that CSP alive for ∞.

whitefall • 16 April 2020 at 11:16 PM

I don't think people come back from hiatus out of fear that their eggs with die though. Usually people leave EggCave for an extended period of time because: 1. life (work/school/something else is keeping them busy) or 2. they're not interested anymore. In both cases, something else becomes their priority over EggCave so they stop visiting. I've been on two long hiatuses (in high school & in college) and EggCave was on the back of my mind. I had eggs die, but I probably wouldn't have come back if everything was gone

I agree think LoV is quite powerful for 500CC, so maybe it could be made more expensive or be like Tim's - the more creatures, the more expensive. But, I don't think it's killing the economy. I've seen many users who really have no attachment left for this site give away their creatures. The people that have /some/ attachment come back eventually if they can.

I don't have a LoV, but it seems like a good way to keep your creatures that you spent so much time, effort and perhaps money on getting and raising.

The site is quite old now and creature values have spiked. I've seen people offer nearly like ~$75 worth of creatures for one creature. Creatures that were available for free in the past cost much more now. I think the staff is trying to deal with this with occasional rereleases. So, I don't think the staff's intention is to stimulate trading by increasing the chance of eggs dying. More eggs dying = rarer eggs = ridiculous prices = frustrated players. I don't see the problem with eggs sitting in inactive coves.. if they died, people wouldn't be able to get them anyways

Also, I don't see a problem in having Tim's, LoV & immortality. Immortality aligns with the site's concept. feed your eggs and they grow. Tim's can be used for a limited time by people that don't buy CC. LoV gives you bigger benefits because it's a CC item.

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 11:19 PM

@ethereality i think indirectly it is harming us all. Eggcave is not as fun when so little people are active. This is coming from the assumption that if creatures still had a chance of dying more people would have to come online to keep them alive if they really cared about this site at all.

For the rest of us who are planning on being active it shouldn’t be too difficult to replenish your leaf of vaka once a month or whatever the expiration date is set as.
Another option is to get them immortalized. Maybe there can be a warning sent out a couple of says before the leaf of vaka runs out? I dont have specific suggestions but I see where you are coming from. 😊

@playermocha345 hmm yea idk. Haha that’s a huge issue I’m sure a bunch of other websites are dealing with as well. XD if it was an easy fix i think eggcave would have done it already LOL we prob just need multiple small fixes to encourage players to stay rather than discourage players from leaving. (Ex: I liked the increase in daily EC gained for everyday logged in, but there shouldn’t be threats or punishment for leaving for long periods)

Deleted • 16 April 2020 at 11:23 PM

@yogurt Mm, yeah. That sounds a bit too serious. And ethereality's right. People do have reasons to go on hiatus, but at the same time, reasons to stay would be nice.

I play this game, and sometimes they give monthly log-in gifts. Say, the month of July, if you log in for 15 days, you can get some stuff. Or, you accomplish a task during events. But, they have events frequently but EC doesn't so accomplish a random task, they you may get a prize.


At the same time, this site is fun for me because I get to collect creatures.. so it can be denied that the LoV is a safety net against my precious creatures dying.

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 11:33 PM

@whitefall haha its funny because you disagreed with a lot of what I thought but when reading what you said a lot made sense in its own way as well. XD such different perspectives but both make valid points i believe.

Only thing I’d like to clarify is that i dont think people return from hiatus due to fear of their egg dying either. I guess more responsibility to their creatures would dissuade people from going on a hiatus in the first place or at least have date for when their hiatus would end. Like if you know you’ll be busy for 4 months maybe buy 4 months worth of leaf of vaka. Maybe a bit extra just in case haha. At least they will leave with the intention of coming back. 😊 and if not then they will like you said get busy with school or work and probably wont come back anyways.

pwuffy • 16 April 2020 at 11:34 PM

@whitefall tbh i definitely see your point of view. now that i think about it i think perhaps its more harmful for newer creatures to be protected by LoV (see: the value of creatures released pre-2013/2014, compared to a lot of creatures after that) but that in my opinion is more of an issue with the frequency and abundance of the newer creatures release (as well as how long they are able to be obtained, compared to old creatures only being around for a couple days)... most older creatures are immortal anyway so i suppose LoV wouldnt do much good for them but i have still come across several old accounts that have plenty of mortals kept alive by a LoV! while i don't want those creatures to die i feel that having such a safety net is less encouraging for people to log in, be active, feed their pets, try to immortalize their creatures, etc... but i don't know, i'd just like some kind of change to get users active again, and stimulate trading more 😊 i think your point of view has changed mine a bit, so thank you for the insight ^^

tims can be used for up to 3 months so i think that is ample time in case of an emergency, but i do get it can be expensive for larger coves... so that is why i had said i don't get why all 3 exist ^^ but, i do understand the niche that all 3 serve. i just think that tims and immortality are ample enough, personally!

chaotictreat • 16 April 2020 at 11:37 PM

I agree with @whitefall and also with @ravensong, I think a lot of the reasons people leave are unrelated but I can also see the benefit of putting a limit on it so if you're inactive for too long it will expire.

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 11:42 PM

@chaotictreat yes i agree there’s a lot of reason for why people leave. I dont think this will solve everything either but the limit can help a bit. I think it would require a lot of small thoughtful changes before we see much of a difference. 😊

whitefall • 16 April 2020 at 11:49 PM

@yogurt Haha, it's good to discuss these things! I'm sure all this feedback is useful for the staff and they'll make changes depending on what direction they want the site to go in 😃

yogurt • 16 April 2020 at 11:56 PM

@whitefall right? I was nervous people would get emotional and offended lol last thing I want is a fight breaking out. Might send me back into hiatus lmao jk

decay • 17 April 2020 at 12:01 AM

I think the only drawback I could see is that the older creature economy currently is really relying on older users to come back and reintroduce older creatures into it so if we make LOV’s only last a month then a lot of those unimmortalized CSP’s will probably die and the users who’ll usually return to reintroduce older creatures will have to spend CC to revive these creatures which is pretty discouraging and will likely want to make people not return so this idea could be a double edge sword... especially if they’re unaware of this change
I think it’ll seem like a huge cash grab too

I think this idea might be really helpful to the name trading economy as it’ll make it so names will get freed up again and less name hoarding will take place as they’ll require immortalization!

I like the thinking behind this!

yogurt • 17 April 2020 at 12:18 AM

@decay I find it so funny that people are listing their dead creatures for trade xD saying I have ___ but you have to pay a reviving fee on it. Hahaha then some people are sad about creatures dying but wouldn’t spend their own CC to bring it back to life because the actual creature’s value is not much. What happened to morality LOL Just thought it was so funny.

decay • 17 April 2020 at 12:26 AM

@yogurt

XD yeah it’s a weird thing to think about!
Morality always goes out the window when money comes into play trust me xD

Anyway, it’s a good point to note that people trade for dead creatures xD

I think this is a good possibility then!
Idk I just know Eggcave is getting a bit ridiculous with prices

whitefall • 17 April 2020 at 12:45 AM

Oh I was just thought of this, but it's possible the staff made it powerful on purpose. A lot of people complain about expensive cove expansions, so maybe this balances that out a bit since it has the same effect regardless of cove size. So, there's some features that depend on cove size (Tim's, cove expansion) and others that don't (LoV)

arcana • 17 April 2020 at 1:12 AM

@yogurt
Personally, I think the system is not fine as it is. But I also don’t think this is the way to fix it. What I see if this happens, is a specific group of users losing their creatures, their names and so many things they’ve worked for.

I agree with some users that have brought up the fact that older creatures are already way too expensive. I don’t think the way to solve that is by upping the price of recent creatures. Frankly, I don't think this change will actually do much to up the price of recent creatures. Rarity rarely makes a recent creature more valuable.

Something that has been brought up in rerelease is that the site essentially promised that the creatures were a one time thing. Guarantees are important, especially when real money is involved. The same could be said here. Although I don't necessarily agree with this argument, consider a user returning to find all their creatures dead, even though they had a Leaf of Vaka. That would be a broken promise, one that could be very troubling.

Here's something I find funny: A user would currently want a Leaf of Vaka, because it's less work and permanent. They would get it, perhaps by feeding and being active, or by buying it. If this became real, then the opposite would happen. You can make your creatures immortal through paying for the stat boosters, or by feeding and being active.You wouldn't want a Leaf because they're temporary. Basically, if this happened, I don't see it really changing anything, except it would just be harder for users to make creatures permanent.

One reason users leave is because, frankly, the site is boring. Feeding can be boring. To fix what you are trying to fix with this, in my opinion, you would need a whole different set of improvements.

In conclusion, I don't think this would work, but I do think it could be very stressful for players, cause potential legal trouble, and make people mad. i hope I'm not being to aggressive or negative, but this is my opinion. Feel free to try to convince me, but...

yogurt • 17 April 2020 at 1:40 AM

@arcana I agree with what you said about guarantees being important. I just wonder since they’re rereleasing creatures we thought would show up once i dont know where that line is drawn. Who knows if CC creatures would be rereleased as well. If they are thinking of rereleasing CC creatures from the past this shouldn’t be too different. I dont like the idea of this either just because I have a lot of creatures I spent over 50kcc on so oh well. We all win and lose somewhere. So I understand why this is controversial.

Still if this is the case of keeping to eggcave’s promises, then i propose just stop selling them from now on? They never promised it would be here forever. But then thats weird though because now price of Vaka will go up so much and most likely its the newbies who wont ever get one.

If I got my way I wouldn’t have released leaf of vaka in the first place but now its time to problem solve not think about past mistakes.

arcana • 17 April 2020 at 2:13 AM

@yogurt
I believe that the current statement is that CC only creatures will never be re-released. Creatures that have been given out in any other way are eligible for re-release, but no CC only creatures.

If we were to stop selling Leaves altogether, I can see that leading to what is happening to old creatures, which is likely not what we want to happen. So, I can't really agree with that either.

yogurt • 17 April 2020 at 2:26 AM

@arcana I wonder if refunding or compensation by refunding over 500cc is worth considering. That way people get back their CC. This is difficult haha

pwuffy • 17 April 2020 at 2:34 AM

if people feeling ripped off is a concern, which i definitely think is valid, perhaps all current LoVs could become "legacy leaf of vaka" and function the same as they do now, and all future LoVs purchased would be temporary or whatever 😊 although, i'm not sure if that would defeat the purpose or not, but at least it would be something moving forward.

i've been keeping up with this thread and i am definitely interested in everyone's POV. really i just want the game and trading to be active again XD but i think this solution, or something similar, could possibly help that?