A solution to the problem with creatures of people who quit

Zac • 28 May 2012 at 6:47 PM

@bunnyshadow In a word, yes. Just because they are no longer around isn't a green light to do whatever you want with their cove.

@james-bond

1. The point of Egg Cave is raising eggs. That is its intended purpose.

2. Is that a rhetorical question? I would much rather have a Whoon that I raised than a random Doovoo. I know this doesn't hold true for a majority for the EC community, but since you asked..

3. Yes, I brought up purging, but I wasn't suggesting that it occur. But yes, I do believe at some point in time, accounts will be purged.

4. "Personally, I would rather the creatures go into the AC then simply be deleted. Isn't it better that creatures are kept in circulation than to rot?" Hooray, finally the point you are making. And I would not agree for a multitude of reasons that can be found in my previous posts.

5. Taken out of context, that sentence makes no sense. 😋 But what I was trying to emphasize was that it doesn't matter however pointless or inane. If a user does not trade their eggs away, tough luck. It's their choice.

Deleted • 28 May 2012 at 6:49 PM

@james-bond Ummm... I'm just trying to say, since almost no one else likes this, it probably won't happen. So many people don't like the idea, so an idea that other people don't like is most likely not going to be made. :/

mika_milile • 28 May 2012 at 6:49 PM

@james-bond

Nothing is inethical on the internet (XD lol), if a site works that way, you knew it when you came. You use any site under the terms listed by it, or you don't use it at all. If a site said that if I joined they'd send me exactly seventy seven messages of spam every Saturday, I wouldn't get angy or upset about it, I'd just decide not to join. XD.

meixiaotian • 28 May 2012 at 6:49 PM

What do I think about other sites doing it?

1. I've never heard about it until before.
2. It's wrong just as this is wrong because it is the same thing.
3. Just because everyone else does it, it doesn't mean it's right.
Have you ever had one of those talks where teachers talk about cliques and how they can force people to do bad things?

You said something about deserving and not deserving, and randomly giving away. At least then, the quitter is doing it willingly.

Zac • 28 May 2012 at 6:51 PM

@james-bond I don't have a problem with purging accounts. It's necessary. I do have a problem with giving creatures away just because other users want them. The world doesn't work like that and frankly, neither does the internet.

Also, I'm fine with quitting users giving away creatures to whomever they decide. Because it's their choice to do so and not some automated bot releasing them into the adoption center.

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 6:54 PM

@zac Yes, I DO think it is worth the trouble letting other users have access to getting those rarer creatures. If this rule was put in place though, I think there would be very VERY few ultra rare creatures in the AC. Pople would be giving the very rare creatures to their friends or include them in the 5. After all, it is almost impossible to trade for Onnys and Doovoos and Goblers at this time, and egg cave is a very new site. As for the point about quitting, it was a point meixiaotian argued so I returned it.

@bunnyshadow I disagree. It's unfair on the newer players, there has been a big argument on the whole 'newbee' matter. It would just bring it up again. I think new players and old should be treated equally. @zac if you've left egg cave, why should it even matter who your creatures go to if you haven't given them out to your friends? Which I now see is the same point that bunnyshadow made.

@morgana That can be tweaked, the 5 was just a suggestion.

mika_milile • 28 May 2012 at 6:56 PM

@zac Here here.

And now -I- have to digress... Neo deletes accounts?!?! I gotta get over there XD

Zac • 28 May 2012 at 6:59 PM

@james-bond It doesn't matter, but that doesn't mean it can still be done. Which is the point I was making with real-life wills. There's plenty of money sitting in bank accounts, but we're all still waiting for the banks to come out and say, first one here gets $1,000,000 from accounts that haven't been touched.

That's the main difference between our arguments. Since it doesn't look like either of us is going to change our minds any time soon, I'm going to have to agree with @blackdeathkitty. It's very unlikely that this idea is implemented, no matter the outcome.

dreamer • 28 May 2012 at 7:00 PM

@Mika_milile Yup. On Neo they have "account purging." They delete acounts that haven't been used in... I think the limit is 18 months? TNT only purges acounts very rarely, though. I've been on Neo for five or six years and I've never seen a single purge. Purging basically just opens the opportunity for people to snatch up names. ^^

twilight_raptor • 28 May 2012 at 7:05 PM

@james-bond By inactive for 3 years do you mean that the user never logged on for 3 years?
And if the user randomly decides to log on in 2.5 years and go back to being inactive, the countdown for 3 years of in-activeness would restart from then on?

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 7:05 PM

@mika_milile exactly. If a tree falls in the rainforest and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? If a user is never coming back and their creatures go into the AC will it hurt them?

@meixiaotian Every adjective used to describe the word is forever. We shouldn't take things so literally. So are you implying that dictionaries are wrong? Then why in debates are DICTIONARY definitions used? Many words have many meanings depending on the context. I think we are getting a little too stuck on this 'quit'. This is what I mean by quit: Not returning.
Egg cave quit - people saying they quit and they didn't, has happened many more times than twice.

Mortal: I mean answer the whole question.

How many egg cavers have you seen that have parents that have forced them to quit? If they were forced to quit, they could at least give them out to friends first. And if they come back, if they are a good enough friend to have made fantastic friends, they canask for them back when they return.

Okay, so you don't look for rare eggs, just eggs that you can watch 'level up and evolve'. Am I correct? That your goal and most egg caver's goal is not to get rare creatures? Just because it doesn't mention anything about trading, doesn't mean that trading is not part of egg cave. You mention greed. I think there is greed on egg cave, as much as I hate to admit it. People desire rare creatures. Isn't that right?

mika_milile • 28 May 2012 at 7:05 PM

@dreamer

Oh. My. God.

I just realised I've been a member of Neopets for FIVE YEARS. And three months.

Ouch. XD

See, @james-bond? I still love that account. And I haven't logged in for two years XD. That's all we're saying 😊.

ladybugheart • 28 May 2012 at 7:10 PM

As @zac already stated:

"I don't believe that creatures should be abandoned automatically. At all.. If a user wanted them gone, they would have done so themselves."

Put more simply here, this is the point I'm trying to make. I don't think you fully understand what I've been attempting to say in my previous post. Of course, there's more to my opinion, but I'd rather not restate it.

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 7:12 PM

@dreamer Many people have more than 5 rare creatures. And it doesn't matter, the LEs would still be going around.

That's the point. If you made it more than 5 there would be no point.

I actually think the unexpected point is not a point. It is so unlikely, and the time period there is to solve the matter is very large. And it is JUST a computer gave. Computer crashing for 3 years? So why can't you go to the library of friend's computer? Parents blocking site? Library? Friend? And for three years? You may have left home by then. log on in 2 years, you're renewed for another three.

Again, there is the greed. Why do we have to try and make things look so awful on egg cave? Why do people have to think people suggest ideas out of greed? Is letting others have enjoyment out of ceratures being greedy? Isn't it more greedy hording those creatures in your cove just so it can look good? Don't call your opinion worthless because no one's opinion is worthless.

dreamer • 28 May 2012 at 7:16 PM

@James-bond For your information, I've seen several users who were forced to stop playing. Heck, my dad hated this site. He doesn't even know I still come on here.

Obviously there's going to be greed, and desire for rare creatures. If people expressed their desires this much, then all over the place there would be suggestions for features that involve forcing people to give away creatures. Such as, "If people are here for more then 2 years, they should be forced to give away five creatures. They've been here long enough!" This one's self-explanatory. Or, "New users should be able to choose one creature of their choice, of any species!" Obviously, users could scam the newbies out of the creature. And they wouldn't be able to make mistakes with trades and learn how to WORK for your rare pets. That's what most people in the world do, right? WORK for things?

If every single person acted this way, the entire EggCave community would be flip-flop. I think, for the most part, the rules are in-blanace here, and I wouldn't bother messing with the abandoned acounts. There's no point to it. Again, it's THEIR creatures, not yours.

I can honestly say that I disagree with every single point you're trying to make. These sorts of ideas have been suggested many times and many people disliked them. Obviously, I'm not going to change your opinion, and you won't change mine. That's it.

meixiaotian • 28 May 2012 at 7:19 PM

@james-bond Please answer how you would feel if this would happen. If you suddenly had to leave and could only save five of your precious eggs.

"Then why in debates are DICTIONARY definitions used?"
Debates get real down and literal. But we aren't using the literal sense on eggcave. We rarely do. This is one of the only times it has been.
Eggcave quit is to officially tell everyone how you are going to be inactive. You won't be going around and chatting anymore.
Very few people use your "quit" and those people are normally newbies, which have no rares.

Just because something rarely happens, it still does happen, and we shouldn't punish those who are unlucky enough to have it happen.

Yes I know that people trade a lot and the rares are important, but you are taking it to the extreme, saying eggcave is all about trading.
I would also prefer to raise a whoon over have a frozen doovoo or something.
"People desire rare creatures. Isn't that right?" Yes, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. They desire them because they are rare but if they weren't they would desire them because they look cool.

"I mean answer the whole question." Yes, it would die, but again, that's why Tim can book for 60 days.

I want to return to the main point. Taking a gone-forever-never-returning user's rares, goes against my sense of ethics. It feels wrong to take something just because I can.

Deleted • 28 May 2012 at 7:19 PM

@james_bond Ummm... I haven't seen anyone agree with you. I think that that means that people don't like this idea. That probably means that other people think it is a bad idea. That is what the majority thinks. So Ian has to go along with them. So it probably won't happen.

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 7:23 PM

@If a tree falls in the rainforest and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? Exactly. If you leave egg cave for good and your creatures get put in the AC does it hurt them?

@zac The 'point' of egg cave differs slightly for every person. For some it's trading to reach an ultimate goal of a creature, for some it's chatting lots, for some it's collecting every common creature and evolving them. You can't make one 'point' and get everyone to follow it.
Do you own any eggs/creatures that you didn't raise yourself?
If accounts will be purged in the future, would you rather the creatures go to new homes where they can be enjoyed, or someone's hard work deleted. Vanish. Never to be seen again.

You say a multitude of reasons, but they are points that I disagree with, or are not entirely clear.

By point five, you are saying that You would rather the creatures just be deleted than have others enjoy it. Is that correct?

meixiaotian • 28 May 2012 at 7:26 PM

@james-bond If you leave egg cave for good and your creatures get put in the AC does it hurt them?

No, it doesn't but that doesn't make it right. Just because there's nobody around to stop you, it doesn't make taking something from a dead person right.

I have to admit, leaving for 3 years if a long time, and they probably won't come back, which is a strong point I agree with, but they still shouldn't lose their creatures.

Zac • 28 May 2012 at 7:29 PM

@james-bond

The point may differ for each person, but the 'point' as defined by the Egg Cave team has already been stated. Who's definition do you think they'll use?

I do own eggs that I didn't raise myself but you'll only find creatures with some sort of significance in my cove.

In short, yes. I'd rather creatures disappear than go to a random users cove. This is because it defeats the purpose of 'your' Egg Cave of trading for rare eggs.

Just because you don't agree with my points doesn't mean they aren't valid. If they aren't clear, please specify and I will re-explain.

linpug • 28 May 2012 at 7:30 PM

@james-bond

I think the point everyone is trying to make is if some user is not in contact with egg cave for a long time, then they come back to find their creatures gone, it wouldn't be fair for them, not that it isn't good to circulate the creatures.

If this suggestion is made, I think if some user is not active for a certain amount of time, they should get emails (I believe Ian has the emails to everyone that has signed up) saying they haven't been active for very long, and their creatures are going to be abandoned in about 30 or something days, or something. 😉



Also, I think @james-bond that thought about this idea a lot before he suggested it, and it's kinda sad to see everyone doesn't agree. There are some advantages to this idea as well, not just disadvantages. 😉

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 7:36 PM

@mika_milile I disagree with 'Nothing is unethical on the internet'. If someone swears on an internet forum, is it ethical? I don't really see how your point with the site terms matches up with this.

@meixiaotian The fact is, that most sites do it to unclog them. Zac thinks it is fine. So does that mean that you'll quit egg cave if it starts purging accounts?

@zac but hording those creatures in your account is like keeping everything of yours to yourself when you die. If the painting Starry Night was privately owned, the owner died, and said in their will "I am keeping this to myself. No one can see it or touch it" is it fair? Is it fair that the person is no longer available to trade to therefore people are missing out on every chance to obtain that creature that may be their goal on egg cave?

Egg cave and real life are different. Very different. In a way, every thing is less extreme. If someone leaves egg cave, they haven't died. If a creature dies, a life has not been lost. Therefore it is not like banks saying "First to get the $1,000,000 gets it".

I agree that this specific idea will not be placed, but certain parts of it and the ideas within these conversations can help to make future decisions.

Deleted • 28 May 2012 at 7:38 PM

@james-bond I will repeat once again. I haven't seen anyone agree with you. I think that that means that people don't like this idea. That probably means that other people think it is a bad idea. That is what the majority thinks. So Ian has to go along with them. So it probably won't happen.

"If the painting Starry Night was privately owned, the owner died, and said in their will "I am keeping this to myself. No one can see it or touch it" is it fair? Is it fair that the person is no longer available to trade to therefore people are missing out on every chance to obtain that creature that may be their goal on egg cave?

Egg cave and real life are different. Very different. In a way, every thing is less extreme. If someone leaves egg cave, they haven't died. If a creature dies, a life has not been lost. Therefore it is not like banks saying "First to get the $1,000,000 gets it".


That is hypocritical.

lola622f • 28 May 2012 at 7:40 PM

@james-bond

I don't really think it is fair. Some people can get life-threatening illnesses, or long-term ones. They may not be able to go on Eggcave for extended periods of time. Some people (although very few) may somehow get a coma, therefore, they cannot go on eggcave.

Nothing in life comes easy. If some user's creatures were in the AC, and they were rare, a random person may adopt them without a hint of hard work and loss.

It would unfair to Eggcave. Maybe there should be an option, saying if you would like to delete your account or not.

dreamer • 28 May 2012 at 7:42 PM

Personally, I'd rather my creatures vanish than be given to people who stalk the AC. And trust me, at that point there WOULD be people who stalk the AC. The people who have made their entire inventory off of getting things for free and having no idea where they come from. The reason there are very rarely LEs in the adoption center is because people keep something. If you like something, you're going to keep it.

I wouldn't want some random user enjoying my creatures if I can't keep them. It's not being rude, it's keeping my hard work to myself. I started off on scratch when I joined EggCave. I grabbed my own les from the cave, purchased my own CC creatures. No one gave me anything huge for free. I even found my first MO in the cave! I love all my creatures, but only because they've been with me most of their lives. If I trade for a rare creature, most of the time I trade it away pretty soon because it has no sentimental value to me.

Why does it matter anyways? They're pixels. They're not physically real. ^^ You can love pixels, but they're really not THIS big of a deal.

Zac • 28 May 2012 at 7:43 PM

@james-bond I agree to an extent that the internet and real life are not similar. However, I said this before and I'll say it again. Life isn't fair and neither is the internet.

Why shut down my reference of the idea of a bank on the basis of EC isn't real life then go and reference Van Gogh?

I've worked very hard for my cove, which is the culmination of almost 3 years of work. So you might consider that I wouldn't want to see that work go to some random user just so EC can be an idealized version of life. Is it fair that some users have to work harder than others to achieve the same thing? Nope. Does it happen? Absolutely.

Believe it or not, my cove and the coves' of many other users don't exist just to satisfy the goals of random users. You may consider that greedy, but I feel that denying users the satisfaction that accompanies achieving their goals is more of a disservice.

meixiaotian • 28 May 2012 at 7:46 PM

@james-bond I never said anything about quitting if it happens. I would probably just go on, too loyal to eggcave. But I'm thinking about those oldies that quit, I don't see how it's good for them to lose all but 5 eggs/creatures.

Here's an improvisation.
A quitting user can say "Hey, [mod-or-friend], I'm going to quit, but I don't know if I'll come back. If I don't come back in say, _ ___s, could you give away ____, ___, and ___ to someone random?"

Then, it would rarely happen, but it still would happen every once in a while. That's why things are called "rare" not "impossible."

I think you want something good, but there is no good way to achieve it.

james-bond • 28 May 2012 at 7:48 PM

@twilight_raptor Yes. Not logged on for three years. As soon as you log on, that time is renewed.

@mika_milile You only went on because you were reminded of it. Yes, you may love it but so what?

@ladybugheart And the rule that creatures will be put in the AC will encourage people to give the creatures out. They certainly would have given them out themselves if they didn't want them to be put in the AC.

@dreamer That's why all you need to do is log on again in 2 years so your account time is renewed. By then you would have left home and can access it whenever you like. Right? Problem solved. The suggestions you stated, I totally disagree with. This is a very different suggestion, so I don't see how what you said is making a point. Don't be so serious about it all! It's a GAME. The points you are making don't fit. You say They are THEIR creatures. If a site got closed down, do you have any say in it staying open? Egg cave is a virtual site.

Deleted • 28 May 2012 at 7:50 PM

@james-bond ☹️ Are you going to even respond to what I said?

meixiaotian • 28 May 2012 at 7:57 PM

You know, the best solution to the dying-out rare would be re-releases, but nobody likes that, even if the original retains its value.