Implementing critique and suggestions

pirran • 2 July 2013 at 1:48 PM

@hathor89
I don't think I expect too much when it comes to simply not being personally insulted over art. Art that you guys get for free, I might add, it's not even for the cash shop. But thank you for your feedback, your english was fine 😊

quadricat • 2 July 2013 at 1:53 PM

I don't think any artist has high expectations for reception on the internet. There are a lot of mean people out there who use their anonymity to be jerks. Yes it is going to happen, we all understand that.

People-- not just artists, want to be treated with a minimal amount of respect, not verbally abused. People do exist on the other end of the keyboard. They do have feelings.

I don't think it is asking too much of a pet-game community such as this one to be respectful. We aren't asking for a sugar coating, or lies. We want the truth to improve. There's no need to spit in our faces because you don't like something we drew.

kollais • 2 July 2013 at 2:22 PM

@pirran

I didn't really like cave monthlies, but just because they're insect-like. Not because your drawing. Your style is more cartoon, but most creatures here are more realistic. May be that's the problem. I think you should add some more details if you want to redraw them.
I really like line art from your blog, so I think you'll be a good artist for EC. Don't take all those comments close, be smarter then those rude people. I believe that the only reason, that someone don't like your creatures is lack of time to draw it. And that's really good idea to make a topic like this one. They can understand you and you can hear some good critique, if that was what you wanted.
Good luck, hope to see some more of your creatures here)

hathor89 • 2 July 2013 at 2:38 PM

@pirran
I only wrote down my experiences. Unfortunately it's true that personal insults are very common around the internet. Especially at websites like this one.

wallie987 • 2 July 2013 at 4:35 PM

@pirran
Oh one more thing - after looking through the really successful EC creatures, I think that using bright, lighter colors is more appealing to most users (stands out more). The more color the better... until it gets over excessive.

dancingkiwi123 • 3 July 2013 at 9:17 AM

@pirran
I lopve the cretures so much I love the feggle

wallie987 • 3 July 2013 at 10:05 AM

@pirran
I love the new egg!!!! Unfortunately, I can't, but want to see the other stages. >.<

pirran • 3 July 2013 at 10:11 AM

@dancingkiwi123

Thank you! (Woo go New Zealand)

@kalateevolk
@orderedchaos
@hayz
@belilalas_25
@bubblez
@chowchow2012
@newlife
@dramatic
@faybaybay
@wallie987
@jazzyleia
@solaris
@metaphor

Holy moly, I didn't realise so many people posted in this thread, sorry for that load of ping! But I thought you guys and gals might be interested in the fact that the Pogknot has been re-coloured. I did it over the last couple of days, taking into account what people seemed to prefer and what users were after. I haven't really done cell shading before, so yes there are some mistakes, but I think they're cleaner than the rushed ones I had previously.

Please note that while I do understand some people didn't like the actual colour of the Pogknot, that wasn't changed. It was a clean up, not a complete pet change. You might have to clear your cache or hard refresh to see the new images.

For those of you who can't see the new images, I've uploaded a comparison here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7399727/pogknot redo.png

wallie987 • 3 July 2013 at 10:15 AM

@pirran
O.o Pretty... the first stage hatchling looks really white, but other than that their SOOOOO much prettier (mostly the egg)! 😃 Are you going to do the feggie too?

kalateevolk • 3 July 2013 at 10:17 AM

@pirran

haha! That's really awesome, I especially love the egg stage. That looks almost like the style, well done 😃

pirran • 3 July 2013 at 10:19 AM

@wallie987

The Feggle will be staying as it is.

wallie987 • 3 July 2013 at 10:20 AM

@pirran
Oh, ok. 😸

pirran • 3 July 2013 at 7:17 PM

How does an artist know whether or not a user suggestion has already been used? I don't see many locked threads, and the archives are generally pretty big to go rummaging through for each suggestion. Are the threads deleted afterwards, or aren't many user suggestions used?

hayz • 3 July 2013 at 8:07 PM

@pirran


Most of the user suggestions are unused. There are some, but not many. I do know that the Brios and the Clocat are user suggestions. I guess the best way to know whether or not a suggestion has been used is to stay on Eggcave and try to memorize at least the looks of the creatures.

pirran • 3 July 2013 at 8:11 PM

@hayz
Alright, that's probably not the best idea with my memory, ahaha, but that'll have to do if there's nothing else in place.

hathor89 • 5 July 2013 at 6:02 AM

@pirran : In the Archives there's a link called "User Suggestion". If you click that one, you see only those creatures that have been suggested by users here. At the moment that's 101 creatures.
The Pogknot now looks better to me. Thanks for taking your time and improving it. I already have got one in my cove now. 😉 But didn't stumble over a Feggle yet. ☹️

pirran • 5 July 2013 at 11:22 AM

@hathor89
Ah thanks, I see it now.

I've been putting any spare Feggles of mine into trades~

hathor89 • 5 July 2013 at 11:37 AM

@pirran You're welcome, glad I could help. 😊

Thank you, I offered. 😉

thursdays_dove • 5 July 2013 at 7:23 PM

@pirran - So, can I just say that I'm hoping you'll stick around? If you've already said so, I apologize - I haven't read through each of the comments on this post. It's probably been said before, but a lot people have a hard time accepting and adjusting to change, which is something they'll just have to get over. I welcome new styles.

I'm no artist so I'm afraid my critiques aren't as multidimensional as some others', but I must say that the revamp of the Pogknot looks SO much better! Just that little bit of change really brought a lot more out of it and brought it to life more. The Feggle is still cute to me and I'm still waiting for the Cave to give me one. 😋

My only real critique on these creatures has nothing to do with the art, but rather the designs themselves - all four of them seemed kind of uninspired to me (albeit, I love tigers, though it doesn't look like you designed that one). There are a few other creatures that I have this same feeling for - and I'll use the Effa as an example because that's the one that stands out the most to me. It looks exactly like a real life giraffe, so it isn't really that "special" to me. It's cute and all, and I even have one, but it isn't very unique when it comes to fantastical creatures. I'd probably feel different if its colors were wacky rather than just being.. well.. giraffe-colored. 😋

Now, that said, you'll find that I mostly keep my opinions to myself and that I like seeing all the new creatures that come out either way, as well as the art behind them. I was taught to not say anything if I didn't have something nice or constructive to say, and being a writer, I know how crippling it can be to receive harsh negative feedback rather than constructive criticism.

Anyway, I hope you do stick around and I hope to see more of your stuff! 😊

pirran • 5 July 2013 at 7:42 PM

@thursdays_dove
Hey, thank you for the post 😊 I'll stick around for as long as Ian wants me, despite the, uh, vocal welcome from the news comments 😋

The two cash shop pets (the elephant and tiger) weren't done by me. Ian has also told me that he believes egg cave should be a more fantasy-based site rather than real life one, and to that I agree. (If I did a tiger, I'd maybe add another set of legs, or make it rainbow, whatever.)

I'll be working on a few things to come, and I may adjust a few colouring techniques depending on feedback and genuine critique in the future, but I'm hoping that if people can talk with the artist rather than have them as a faceless entity, it may help the users judgement when creatures are released.

whitefire • 5 July 2013 at 8:28 PM

I read the comment about it looking like a 12 year old dabbled it with water colours, and although I wasn't the artist, I find that quite offensive. I'm 12, and I don't "dabble with water-colours," as that person so bluntly put it. :/ If you checked out my deviantART, you'd see that. While it's true that my idiot colleagues act like less kind and civilized Kindergarteners when it comes to academics and art, you shouldn't just lump us all together like that. So that is not only offensive to the artist, but to other people who read that (who also happen to be 12 year olds who enjoy drawing XD). http://flareice.deviantart.com/ I do NOT dabble with water colours.

And, @Pirran, I'm not going to offer any helpful criticism, because I believe that had you had the time, they would have been breathtaking. Besides, what advice could a novice artist like me have to offer somebody like you? ^^

pirran • 5 July 2013 at 8:40 PM

@whitefire
All artists have critique and suggestions for each other, no matter their style~ I still consider myself a novice, too 😋

bot • 6 August 2013 at 11:09 AM

@Pirran --

Kay then, I have some tips for creature art! 😃 Sorry if I'm being a little bit of a backseat driver but a little constructive tips wouldn't hurt, right? 😊 If you feel like your art doesn't really need tips just let me know.

First things first, I'm a pretty good artist myself, but not with that fancy digital stuff, sorry if I'm taking a shot in the dark here 😋 but try making the outlines varied, it really helps make it look more official. Also, shading is key! Look at previous artist's art and try to increase yours! Also, try not to make it TOO simple, like the Poplin's art (no offense). Maybe try different poses like you did with Danaus. (I like the concept and cuteness of this one, very nice work!)

Thanks for reading!

~ B O T ~

eggs • 3 September 2013 at 5:14 AM

@pirran

Just out of curiosity! How many artists are there who have drawn for egg cave? 😸

@whitefire

*high-five* I'm a twelve year old too! People seriously underestimate us xD Here's my deviantart account: larexna.deviantart.com

olimpt • 3 September 2013 at 12:00 PM

@pirran
I am fairly sorry for my rudeness on my rant post.
I was being irrational that day, and my mom even commented on it.
--
I suggest going onto photoshop and drawing a LOT of eyes. different shapes and sizes. Pick out a few that you like from a batch of them and keep drawing them to perfect them.

I can also suggest working on proportion. If you are doing a creature based on a real animal, look up the animal on google images and pay attention to how you think they move. On the first two stages of the Ooz I don't see how it could move. It's fins look out of place and stubby. Also on various of the creatures, I notice these thin lines, like on the Vecker's leg root things, the toe/roots look too thin and need to be slightly thicker. Same with the Ooz, the line things on the last stage, they don't look like they should be there.
---
I reaaally like the 2nd stage on the Vecker though, it looks the best out of all three stages. I also like how you don't just draw the creature in different positions and it actually grows.
--
I like the Demga, though it looks like it needs to be a bit more polished, the Baku's lines look really nice, but the shading on it is a bit too shiny xD like, really really shiny.
--
That was my pick at the basket. Again i'm really sorry for being rude, I now understand and I will wish you luck in the future 😊
(Do work on the eyes though!)

whereiscupcake • 3 September 2013 at 3:15 PM

@pirran I must say that I have liked most of the Eggcave creatures since the time I 'joined' (I was on EC in 2011 too, I restarted). The only reason I have to not like any of them was because of personal taste. For example, the Danaus was cute but fairies/butterflies aren't really in my interest. The art for Feggle and Pogknot was amazing, especially considering time limits and that Pogknot was at such short notice.

I'm not terrible at art (People say I'm the best in my class and that I should start a side job selling my art- which I think is being overly nice. I'm not that good 😋), so long as there isn't too much pressure from time or criticism- which you are dealing with really well. If someone said that about my work, I would respond the same way.

People just have to accept different artists have different styles and views. The world doesn't revolve around them and their suggestions.

I hope you do stay and keep up the good work 😊 I already can't wait to see what next month brings into the Eggcave world.

victorythevaporeon • 3 September 2013 at 3:39 PM

@pirran
I love the Feggle, how dare they offend it ☹️

As for the Pogknot, I love it cause it looks so Derpy x3

I really like the art for the CSP creatures, if only that artist made the Danaus...

August was different.Kinka wasn't the best.I like the Zubflugg as I think the way it was drawn portrayed the actual creature (The egg confuses me a bit... o.o) The CSP were the bad point. Poplin, I can't explain. But Danaus was alright.The egg looks really pretty. As for the newer ones, I haven't looked at them much, so i'll talk about those soon.Toodles 😊

piucca • 4 September 2013 at 11:05 AM

@pirran

Critique of the Feggle:

The anatomy is not believable. The arms are simplistic and seem detached from the design of the body. The ribbon effect you had been going for on the fins fell flat. It had become very two dimensional and not believable. The texture you had attempted with the scaling could have been left out all together if you were using black lines for it. A darker shade of blue would have been more appropriate and would have given depth rather then flatten the piece. The eyes of the creature fell flat and two dimensional as well. Using one color then using the dodge tool on highlight does not complete the process, it is only one step in many to complete a believable eye. Burn, dodge, texture, color, highlight, these things were missing in many aspects of the whole design. You need to work on these particular points in all of your work, not just the time restraining ones. As I am sure you now know, the EC style always seems to end with an under highlight it created using a strict white line across particular points on the bottom half of the creature. This line creates another depth and style to the creatures and helps tie into EC.

There are many things you could have done to have displayed a better product, and you need to work on these things. You are not an awful artist, but you have many years to get to where you need to be if you are serious about continuing to make money off of a saturated market. There are so many artist who are better then you, but there will always be. This fact should not have you stop learning new ways of making a complete piece. Personally I would not have let an incomplete piece go out as a finished product. Your art reflects you.

So to finish this up, I apology for any harsh words I may have said and the words of children who do not have any background in art words they may have upset your feelings. Just one more step you have taken into the art world. It will not be the last time you get torn down over a piece you though was wonderful. It happens to even the best of artist, but that is what makes an artist keep going and getting better. It should never stop you for striving towards the next piece. If you want real critique, ask for it on another site. If you want to know what people feel when they see your art, ask here. People of a younger age tend to tell the truth more then an older person, because they say what is on their minds without second guessing them selves. So picking through their "harsh" words, there is an underlying truth to help you to get better.

If any of these points have been made in a previous post. I am sorry for repeating, I didn't read any of them, but the first three.
If you find this post too harsh, tell me and I will add smilies to make it seem less aggressive.

EDIT: As a response to your first post in saying that the users do not think that the staff is not reading their comments, is just making excuses. They are well aware their comments might be read by the artist, the mods and admins, and maybe even Ian. I think it is the whole point in complaining, in hopes to have something get done, to fix it, to make it different then what they are upset about.

pirran • 4 September 2013 at 3:05 PM

@eggs
I'm not sure, I don't know any of them, nor am I in contact with any other artists. I know as much as anyone else on that front, I only talk with Ian.

@olimpt
If you don't like the eyes, I apologise but I think you should give eyes a go and then shrink the image down to 90px ^_~ There's a difference between drawing a lovely eye, and then having that eye shrunk to about 3px in diameter. I personally think my regular eyes here are pretty well done:
http://pirran.dunked.com/digitalpaintings

This next bit isn't just for you, I wish I could bold it because this is important, but I don't just whip up any creature I please. People complain every month that their creature wasn't chosen, or they don't like the style, or the idea. That's not my fault (and frankly not my problem as this user base is very diverse in what they like, I'm not going to please everyone, there will be complaints every month which is very tiring).

As an example, the following links were the EXACT links I was given in order to make the creatures. Ian asks for "something like this" and I do "something like that". Sometimes I create a user suggestion, or Ian asks for one, but in general the creature isn't my idea. The ONLY exception to this was the Feggle, which was a test run to see if I'd be good for eggcave.

http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_624x416/public/2011/09/02/4-Baku.jpg?itok=fmvNxjHn

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG63.jpg

http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Wolfire828/media/Animals/Mythical Creatures/eebae1ea.gif.html

http://www.crazywebsite.com/Free-Galleries-01/Odd-Alien-Pictures/Bizarre-Alien-Images/Amazing-Extraterrestrials-Evil-Easter-Creature_jpg.jpg

So yes, the hippocampus type pet, Oos, might be "too similar" to another pet but what would you do? Add more legs? Frankly, I'm tired of complaints over something you're not forced to pay for (or even get for free in case of the cave pets). If you don't like it, you're welcome to dislike it, but vocalising it is just going to get you crappier artists when the better ones can go elsewhere for money.

The shininess of the baku was because people whined last month that pets weren't shiny enough. Take it or leave it 😋

@whereiscupcake
Thank you, I really appreciate those kinds of comments amongst, well, everything else 😊

@victorythevaporeon
Thank you 😊 I drew the Danaus from a user suggestion.

@piucca
As I've mentioned in quite a lot of other comments, the Feggle was a test run. I hope you realise my shading has changed for tiny 90px images since then. Smilies won't help make anything you've said 'happier' or less aggressive. If you think it's true, some comments still hurt. It happens, and as you said, if this market was stronger, I'd probably take my art elsewhere. I've never had to deal with this sort of stuff before, it's extremely stressful but if it pays my bills then I have to suck it up, don't I? At least people working at fast food or gas stations don't have to be told that they suck and that there will always be others out there that are better than they are, after they sign off their work each night.

People are welcome to complain each month, but it doesn't mean it'll be fixed. In fact, in terms of artists willing to put up with the feedback, it'll probably only get worse. I stay because I like Ian, and because I need to pay my bills and take care of my baby daughter. I don't stay because of the userbase, in all honesty. I've met a few really nice people here, but they're the minority, and it's a real shame to say that if I could afford to, I'd have left already.

Ian • 4 September 2013 at 5:01 PM

Quote @pirran:

"I've met a few really nice people here, but they're the minority, and it's a real shame to say that if I could afford to, I'd have left already."

To everybody: Egg Cave is a free place where you can express your opinions. I am just... disappointed... with all of the criticism. Like, you're free to express your opinion. And free to not adopt creatures you don't like. It's just the fact that @pirran has literally felt chased out by our user base. It's just a testament to how poorly the community has conveyed their criticism.

Fine to have an opinion. Not cool to rip somebody apart, with no regard for them as a thinking and feeling human being.

/ranting

@pirran: I'm sorry for the line of criticism you've received. I really am. You've handled yourself very maturely and I'm glad to have you a part of Egg Cave. I hope you stay. Because we have work to do and no other artists to fill the void, heh. 😸