Of decency and fair play (when buying from NPC shops) / re: questing

snowywinter • 25 September 2022 at 8:32 PM

When not filling my own reserves and am buying to put something in the user shops I've always only ever took what I've needed and left the rest of the stock for other players to take if need be... or at least waited until it is at the top of the page and several minutes have passed (and still leave one just in case.)

Now with the VEND mass re-release I've noticed it's a lot more rampant where several people will buy out all of an item and stock lots of them in their shop. ...creating an artificial inflated short supply.

I'm begging everyone, PLEASE if you have some in your own stock, leave at least ONE of the item in the NPC shops for other Questers.

- - - - -

29 Sept:
Something I want to clarify as it has come up a few times.
Buying out things in the top row or two after a few minutes have passed isn't going to hurt much.
If you aren't in the shops enough to notice, When they restock the Shops will clear items that have been there for a few rounds. So those items disappear into the ether and don't go into anyone's inventory. So it helps us all out if those get bought up.

kataclysm • 28 September 2022 at 5:38 AM

@snowywinter
Honestly, this is a really good point. I've never really understood the compulsion to buy out a store's product at rapid speed, and yet here we are.

I think another point to think about, potentially, is the way people price their items in stores. We all want to make a profit, but why would anyone think pricing that Cheese Sub at 50k is a reasonable thing to do? LMAO.

cryogenics • 28 September 2022 at 5:43 AM

i have a problem with people adding items in their shops for 9999999 price. and then its the only item available in the user shops, leaving one at the mercy of the community's generosity.

heatherm19 • 28 September 2022 at 3:07 PM

I agree that user-shop pricing can get pretty absurd, and it's especially frustrating when the ridiculously high priced one is the only one in any user shops. I'm flexible with my spending in user shops but I'm not spending 100k+ on a single common item!

I always consider whether or not I already have any in my strongroom when considering whether to buy a specific item. Personally, I shop in the NPC-stores enough to know which items are more or less likely to pop up again in a reasonable amount of time, and if it's something that I only ever see once every handful of days sometimes I will buy whatever is in stock simply because I don't know when I'll next get the chance. I never do that for things I have more than 3 of already, and certainly not for things that I already have stocked in my own shop. There is definitely a line between 'understandable stocking-up' and 'selfish/greedy behavior' imo.

scorch_cloud222 • 28 September 2022 at 3:25 PM

The price gouging is getting pretty ridiculous. There's no reason to mark things up at 100x the price that you bought it for, just because it's needed for a quest. It's taking advantage of people, and it's gross.

wonder404exe • 28 September 2022 at 3:54 PM

This is why i price everything in my shop 1k 😊 Its not too much i hope, I know people wanted to do quests so much soooo- low price ahaha

cranberrycat1 • 28 September 2022 at 4:42 PM

what if the shops lowered the max price to maybe like 50k for non cc items and 1mill for cc items and there was a different section on maybe a different page where people can keep their showcase items

nkiay • 28 September 2022 at 6:10 PM

@cryogenics @kataclysm @heatherm19 @scorch_cloud222

I do this on my side to show off my item collection. It's really frustrating when someone buys things because I don't want to sell them. Hense the ridiculous high price.

I can almost guarantee that anything at 99mil they aren't trying to sell. This is why we need a gallery or creatures item collection easier to view. 😊

scorch_cloud222 • 28 September 2022 at 6:24 PM

@nkiay

Sure, sure. That makes sense. I'm more talking about things that are like 200 EC in the shop, but selling for 20,000 EC.

nkiay • 28 September 2022 at 6:25 PM

Yeah, I agree about that for sure. @scorch_cloud222

heatherm19 • 28 September 2022 at 6:26 PM

@nkiay Yeah, I mean I understand why people want to show off their collections, but using *shops* to do that is just frustrating for all involved. You don't want people buying them, we don't want to *see* them 'available' when we know we aren't actually 'supposed' to buy them. They are called user 'shops', after all, so if I see something in a shop I assume I'm allowed to buy it... It took awhile for me to realize that some users actually don't want you to buy things from their shops.

nkiay • 28 September 2022 at 6:29 PM

@heatherm19

I agree. We need something better to display items.

minnie298a • 28 September 2022 at 8:56 PM

@cranberrycat1
Those values would need to be increased. I know there is one travel that sells for nearly 99K in the Agency (PKS 1101+384).

I'm in two minds with the pricing. While I believe that you should be able to price everything what you wish, there are some who are gouging and trying to take advantage. I also don't see the point of gallery type collections. But that's just me, and I also understand others will feel different.

Personally, I've set a limit for myself and just don't buy and reject the quest. In saying that, I'm not desperate for a Foo, and just do a couple of quests each day to stockpile the tokens to buy the other couple of creatures I'm still considering, and so I'm not desperate when there is one I want.

heatherm19 • 28 September 2022 at 9:15 PM

@minnie298a .... I had no idea there was an item that cost that much in the regular shop! Wow.

Lowering the max-price in shops could be helpful, though I'm not sure what a reasonable limit would be, especially coming down from something as absurdly high as 100m.

minnie298a • 28 September 2022 at 11:22 PM

@heatherm19
It's something I noticed mainly in the Travel Agency and Library. There are often items that are way more expensive to begin with. So someone asking 30K for something seems unreasonable at a quick glance, but not when it cost them 26K to begin with in the NPC shops, instead of under 2K like so many items.

snowywinter • 29 September 2022 at 1:30 AM

I've actually noticed since my post that there seems to be a lot more of singular stock of items in the shops.
^^ < 3
I for one am grateful, as I was able to obtain a few items I had none of. Hopefully it is helping out others too.

- - - -


@kataclysm
understanding that line of thinking and agreeing with it are two different things. lol.
Your second statement ties into the first. If you are the only supplier of something, you can jack up prices and expect someone will pay. : /
(Even knowing that theory... I try not to take advantage of that. Even if I'm the only one to have a particular item up for sale I usually will try to only charge a small premium. The most I have ever gone is 1000% / 10x's the NPC price and that is on highly sought after hard to come by items I had very little stock of in my own reserves.)

I recently joined another virtual pet site for the games and the user seller culture is insane. Even the site staff are saying the mass buying out is NOT okay - but don't really do anything about it. But the long-time players whine about the economy. One they created. It would be like us saying 100 CC is all of a sudden worth 30 Billion EC. They take items that would be worth 400 EC, and charge 30k EC, and belittle any player that charges LESS for it in their shops! o.O (So yeah, about the same example you made with the Cheese Sub.)
I am SO glad we can all come to reasonable consensus around here. With diplomacy. Even when there are different viewpoints. All sides are listened to and we generally meet in the middle.


And before I forget the point I want to write it down (forget who this is addressing) -
I have started to mark up my prices a bit more this year, but it's not in relation to the VEND releases.
Mainly as another player pointed out in another of my threads - Shop space Expansions. (Before this releases I was running out of room for the things I as finding that I wanted to stock, and I wanted to keep a good variety in there. - Now I can't keep up.) To be able to offer a wider variety of items it starts getting as expensive as Cove spaces were.

And I have a formula I use for my base selling price. But this year it's been even harder for me to earn EC by feeding due to health issues... So I'm trying to compensate a bit through yet another increase. :/
But point being - not everyone with high prices (I consider mine to half of the time still be reasonable,) is greedy.
(I've been mostly sticking strictly to the formulas I have, and I balk a little when i see what it leads to from the naturally higher priced items. I've even discounted the final price on a few items a couple times getting closer to my original formula.)


@cryogenics
I've learned to ignore the people who have the items where it's clear the items are only on display. It's the prices that are insane, but just low enough to be taunting that annoy me. But yes, it bites when you think something is in stock only to see 'not really'. : /
It really would be nice if we had showrooms and I get that some players want that more than others. It's been fun on the other games I've played that had them. One central location. Even if on our pets it was all on ONE page instead of split by several categories.


@heatherm19
Agreed (on pretty much everything you said about reasonable stocking up. I really can't blame anyone who sees a rare item pop up that they want and only have a few of. And on the other... Someone doesn't have to grab all 5 of the thing they have 426 of that pops up three times a day in the shop.)


@wonder404exe
Regarding any of the items that may cost over 1k EC from main shops.
Which it is wonderful when people can sell for low prices. And some of us definitely appreciate it. I love running across deals and it makes me smile.
I just fear some people would take advantage of that to resell. It is absolutely okay to at least sell things for official shop price - I doubt many people would mind. Even rounding up would be okay. Don't be afraid to make at least a small profit. : ) < 3


@cranberrycat1
My eyes got big at the mention of setting a specific price limit. As was already mentioned there are some REALLY expensive travels. And it would also hamper people selling CC and retired items.
I'd say a percentage would be a more reasonable way to go if something like that were implemented. (I'm still against the idea as we're a rather reasonable community. Prices were starting to get insane across the board a couple months ago. The masses complained, and it's already mostly back to normal gouging. lol. Let people price how they want, what people are willing to pay will drive the market.)

But it is well past time we get a way to showcase items. In the year and a half I've been here it seems to be something someone (not just one person) is asking for every month (be it new players or old.) I remembered when I joined it was one of the first features I looked for when I started buying items. (and was confused as to why i couldn't find it.) - The items per pet is not a sufficient alternative.
Whether one uses it or not it seems like it would befit all on the site in some way if we were to get the feature.


@nkiay
I definitely understand both sides of it.
It looks better all in one place, but it is frustrating when looking to buy things and running across those items.
And people that price lower than you do, you have to look in their shop to see if it is for sale or not.
I've at least gotten used to seeing your pricing and moving along.

I won't put anything in my shop I don't want to lose. I state in mine though that if it's an astronomically insane price it is available for sale to anyone who may want it more than I do. (fair is fair.)
Only alternative to not lose the items is to put them on a pet and link to the pet in your profile. : / *shrug emoji*

See last paragraph in comment to cranberrycat1


@scorch_cloud222
Yup, those ~ 500 EC -5k items selling for 30k - 100k (Respectively. I mean the 500 selling for 30k. 5000 for 30k wouldn't be too insane, depending on the item, imo.)


@raretreasurehunter56
Good to know about "overpriced items". I forget if it was in the forums or PMs, but I was telling someone that most shop owners are reasonable and will give a better deal if you just ask. : )

Yikes on the mis-buy! I wish we could use commas here. I know there's no international standard and some countries use periods or colons, but it's been a pain having to input numbers. Especially in auctions. I literally copy and paste (off Notepad) so I don't get it wrong (like when I was putting the CC up.) I was so nervous I was going to put it up for 100K instead of 1M EC and have to rely on someone's honesty to correct it.


- - - -

Maybe I should have put this in Site Feedback & Ideas. >.< LOL
Got lots of great feedback here! *Thumbs up emoji* Great work everyone. ^^
... o.O? Even if we didn't exactly stay fully on topic. Still GREAT discussion!



Extra pings: Thank you for contributing to the thread. : )
(Either I had nothing to reply back or didn't know where to ping at and not repeat myself, or confuse a person as to why i was pinging them >.<)

@minnie298a (and now I feel guilty you're they only one down here. Ummm... see my last paragraph to cranberrycat1? lol. Seriously though... always love seeing you around the forums ^^)

beta • 29 September 2022 at 12:24 PM

Personally, I don’t see the issue with people buying out the item shops, seeing as they are restocked every 15 minutes or so (correct me if I am wrong on that). Users that are “price gouging” are not to blame for people actually spending a ton of ec on singular items for questing. No one is being forced to buy these “overpriced” items, so there shouldn’t be a big deal with it. If you mean the random 999,999,999 or whatever, I don’t see why that is necessary but if it is funny if it is what it is…

snowywinter • 29 September 2022 at 12:49 PM

@beta
The problem is that not every item is restocked every 8 - 15 minutes (that would be an impossible list to sort through.) Some are only restocked maybe once per week, if that.

prairie • 29 September 2022 at 1:11 PM

@snowywinter
Due to Questing getting the update that allows people to actually purchase what they want, It is understandable that item shops & user shops alike are being bought from more.
User shops are now a reliable way to make EC income for users, so of course people are buying out many items from shops to put in their own shop with the "convenience fee". I see this same thing happen in real life in many different instances, be that gas convenience store prices, or the price of a hot new item that's out of stock everywhere - but hey its available on ebay if you want to pay almost double the price.
Generally, as EggCaves past history of user shops has shown, prices might be outta whack when something exciting drops, but over time the economy evens out because of competition/more reasonable pricings. Lets look at when the CSP-rereleases started. CC values skyrocketed. It was i n s a n e . 50cc was no longer 500k, it was 1mil if not higher. Sure a few users who don't buy CC with IRL money defiantly did buy cc at the huge mark-up, but more than not, people found ways to get CC without user shops. Be that through setting up lots in the TC asking for normal conversion rates, topics, creature lots, or - just buying cc that go round. Eventually most people noticed that the up-price was a bit insane and stopped. However you likely will see CC:EC conversion rates up when popular CC creatures are being released (like with the Onny, Macbot & Doovoo) and I think that's healthy.
So I'm expecting the same to happen in regards to items. But it might take longer.
Personally, I haven't really found any crazy upcharges so far.

There isn't really anything 'artificial' about the inflation of items. I mean sure, if you find some of those user shops where someone has an item for 99,999,999 that can be a bit irking. But oftentimes I find some people with those prices kind of use their shop as a Gallery of their favorite items or such without applying them to a creature. (Do I really agree with this? No, I find it annoying quite frankly. If people really want a gallery style page, they can suggest the need for one)
But it is reasonable for a very rare &/or expensive item from the travel agency to be marked up from almost double and higher. The same thing happens when new items & travels drop. For the first week or so, prices are very high due to demand & hype from those wanting them for a creature or their item collections. After awhile though, the prices lower to more reasonable prices on resale though.
It's been that way since before questing got hot, but now people are actively needing some of those items.


"I'm begging everyone, PLEASE if you have some in your own stock, leave at least ONE of the item in the NPC shops for other Questers"
Quite frankly, why would they? If you found a way to make EC at a reasonable pace, I'm pretty sure you'd rather profit than not. I know I would - its just I'm not active on here enough to keep up.
Also often times, I don't go peaking into my strong rooms to see if I have a item already & I don't have a list in my head. If I feel there's a need for it, I'll grab all that I want or need. (by this I mean if I'm shopping in general. I check when I need something for a quest)
If people notice a item popping up in quests alot, why the heck would they not buy out that item if they found alot? If not for their own use, they can sell some for a profit.

heatherm19 • 29 September 2022 at 3:17 PM

@beta Item shops may be restocked every 10-15 minutes, but that doesn't mean that specific item is restocked. Certain items may only appear in a shop once every few days. I've done quests where I've literally been at the shop for 8+ hours without seeing the item I need. So yeah, it does become an issue when someone quickly buys up all of an item and then that item doesn't get stocked again for days. And when it comes to 'price gouging', while it's true that no one *has* to buy the overpriced items, again it does become an issue when someone immediately buys out all the stock in an NPC-shop just to stock it in their own shop for absurd prices, which is a huge disadvantage to questers hoping to grab things for base-price in the NPC-shops.

snowywinter • 29 September 2022 at 9:49 PM

@prairie
"I don't go peaking into my strong rooms to see if I have a item already & I don't have a list in my head."
I actually do check my Storeroom, User Shops; and on my old computer I used to keep a list to check what was the best price to buy items at so I could quickly copy and paste so i didn't have to bother with haggling.
"If people notice a item popping up in quests alot, why the heck would they not buy out that item if they found alot? If not for their own use, they can sell some for a profit.
That's called greed. I can still buy most of an item, leave one for someone else if there's multiple and I have a lot of it stocked up, and make a profit. (and if the 1 remaining item is in the top two rows after several minutes, it's fair game.) Sure, buying out things may be something many people do in the real world, but I choose to be one of the people who live a life of kindness and communal cooperation.
Been doing that since I started my shop and I made a profit "at a reasonable pace." It was all how much time I was willing to put into it, not on how many of an item I bought up when it was stocked.
(Granted at the pace things are going right now, I understand people's desire to do so. I'm just asking them for a *bit* of restraint. "Share and share alike.")

You did remind me of something I needed to address though in my main post.
Thank you : )


@heatherm19
There was a travel I wanted to put on one of my creatures (and I didn't want to use my "break glass in case of emergency" stock *ehem* questing.) One I had seen fairly often, but never paid much attention to as it's not a particularly handsome travel. Not highly sought after; never seen many sold, constantly was low prices in shops. Then I go to try to find more... *poof* Even having three friends who were constantly in the shops keeping an eye out, it took over a week to get another one! (Yet I usually see it stock about every three days.)
Yeah, not ideal for those who are questing.
And I wasn't about to pay 30k for a travel I know normally only sells for about 2k. Plenty of my creatures sit just fine in their blank white voids patiently.
(I'm thinking the timing of me acquiring the creature coincided with the travel being picked for questing >.< Because that travel sat in shops unsold for months before that. lol.)

beta • 29 September 2022 at 9:53 PM

@snowywinter @heatherm19 I mean even without people instantly buying all items the items would still not be there at base price.

heatherm19 • 29 September 2022 at 11:12 PM

@prairie While I understand your points, it does seem like there can be some compromise of human decency here. Marking up an item in your shop to make a profit is completely understandable; Putting a 5k item in your shop for 300k when you know your item is the only one in any user shops? That's not understandable, that's greedy. Buying all of an item if you don't have any, or know it's an item you'll use in quests or on creatures? Totally understandable. Hoarding all the items just so you can put them in your shop at outrageous prices? Less understandable.

There is a big difference, imo, between reasonable stocking up, reasonable price mark-ups, etc, and the type that are just outright greedy. I have no problem paying, say, 55kec for a travel that has a base price of 23k. That's a reasonable profit margin. But going so insanely high that users would rather just fail their quests than spend that much, especially if you know yours is the only of that item in shops... We have to have a bit of human decency around here, right? Stock up, mark up, fine, but acknowledge that you aren't the only one that may need those items and it's not fun for anyone to have this kind of greed spreading around.

(using the general 'you', not meaning anyone in particular.)

prairie • 30 September 2022 at 2:09 AM

@heatherm19
Oh by all means I’m certainly only meaning ‘reasonable’ markups when I’m talking about resale.
I personally haven’t seen many… 300k ec items in shops unless the item is retired, in which case it wouldn’t be showing in the quests anyways.
If there is a shop that has that single quest item from that obscene markup… there’s a cancel quest button for a reason. Beats waiting around for 12 hours. I’m not saying it’s morally right if the person with the markup, but I think that’s just a thing that’ll get weeded out over time, just like most of the normal cc to ec prices.