A new player's opinion (too pay to play)

quinoafuntime • 26 November 2021 at 10:51 PM

I've been on the site for almost two months and I'm having fun. But here's my main criticism: the site is extremely pay to win.

CC is used to get valuable creatures and to freeze creatures, and selling CC can get you a lot of EC very quickly. Gobbler hunt and Egg Cave bday are the only opportunities for free players to get CC directly from the game. Devs have been talking about maybe adding a EC to CC converter for a while now, but I worry that it's never going to happen.

The only other way that poor players can get CC is to purchase it with EC from other players who spent real money, but opportunities to buy CC from other players are rare (I see many players asking to trade CC for EC all the time). Most of my favorite creatures are ones that I can't get because their owners either never log on or only want CC. And for most creatures, I like their earlier stages more than their adult stages (the cynic in me suspects that this is done intentionally, but I hope that's not true).

I don't like the pay to win nature of the site at all and to be honest it creeps me out and makes me less likely to spend real money here, as much as I like the site. I regularly feel frustrated and powerless to make the cove that I want to make. There are many creatures that I like that I can't get unless I spend money.

I see many people defending the current system by saying that CC is the only way for the site to make money. There are many pet sites that have premium currency, but most give it out more generously so that free players have a chance. On this site, if you pay you can get almost any creature you want. If you don't pay, it's very hard to get most creatures and impossible to get many others. I would also prefer more ads if that meant that free players can get the creatures we want to get.

Thank you for reading. I only feel so frustrated because there is so much here that I like. There is a lot of potential here, but currently it seems like there is too much greed here as well.

Edit: Check out @prairie's suggestion for an EC to CC terminal. I really like her idea.

Edit 3/28/22: I changed the title from "pay to win" to "pay to play." This is because we don't 'win' at collecting creatures, but the vast majority of creature species are unobtainable without spending money.

mr-blue-bones • 26 November 2021 at 11:30 PM

I agree, after updating my wishlist earlier I was really disheartened and frustrated to see that most of the creatures I want are CC creatures, things that I absolutely can't afford.
I love this game and I'd love to expand my collection! But I'm thinking I have to come to terms with the fact that unless the currency system changes I'll never have the cove I want. It'd be 30$ if I wanted to get both store monthlies and both unvaulted creatures.

quinoafuntime • 27 November 2021 at 11:26 AM

@mr-blue-bones good to hear that it's not just me. Good luck with your wishlist.

stellalunagirl • 28 November 2021 at 4:01 AM

@quinoafuntime

I have to say as an oldie I agree. When EC first started I was able to trade and barter for CC creatures, but as time has gone on, so many creatures have had their prices inflated and now, the only way I am able to obtain creatures is with CC, which I am able to purchase now (but not then) in limited quantity. So I do agree, even with CC re-releases bringing inflated prices down, it is still quite expensive for new players and very difficult for free-to-play players ☹️

lady_dreamwyn • 28 November 2021 at 5:54 AM

@quinoafuntime

I hear you. While I can afford to get some CC at times, I know from past experience what it's like when you can't afford such things. I personally feel like more creatures should be re-released in ways that DON'T require CC to buy them, to help ease some of the absurd inflation some creatures have. I doubt that will happen, but I think it should. Inflated economies tend to be bad for pet sites.

I was first on Egg Cave years ago and only recently came back in July, after a very long absence. One of the things I always loved about this site was the kindness of its community, and that continues to be the case. I only have some of the creatures I do now because people have been kind and generous still.

I'd like to pay that forward. Here is a gift: https://eggcave.com/trades/994688/show You can just put in some item you aren't going to use or something. (And I just want to note that if you're not comfortable accepting, that's okay. I won't be offended. Gifts should make a person feel good, not uncomfortable or upset.)

quinoafuntime • 28 November 2021 at 12:35 PM

@stellalunagirl Thank you for posting, it's good to know that it's not just new players who feel this way.

@lady_dreamwyn 😲 are you sure? That is unbelievably kind of you, I don't know what to say! Thank you thank you ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ I will offer all the money that I've collected so far, since I wouldn't feel good accepting it for nothing.

izziedragon • 28 November 2021 at 2:44 PM

@quinoafuntime As much as I appreciate the rereleases and the added opportunities to purchase the creatures of my dreams, I can't avoid the truth: it is very much pay to play. I hardly get any of my wishlist without paying for it in some real world monetary regard.... But I'm not sure what to suggest instead....
@lady_dreamwyn ❤️ The old eggcave spirit! Love to see it alive and well. I'll be putting a lot of savings into cyber monday tomorrow and you can bet I'm gonna try to spread some good karma in the future where I can. ❤️

dougprishpreed • 2 December 2021 at 4:32 PM

@quinoafuntime well put, hope they will listen

quinoafuntime • 26 March 2022 at 11:29 AM

I am still hoping for @ian to address the problem of this site being too pay to win. @prairie's idea of a way to exchange EC for CC is a great idea in my opinion, as it would incentivize earning EC by engaging in site activities and helping other players by feeding their coves. Please do something soon!

Pinging some more people to see what they think:

@cranberrycat1 @aquafaba @nathreok @sourpatchkitty @kataclysm @cryogenics @renfri @aedia @widgetspinner @noxura @existential @brookie @iia

kataclysm • 26 March 2022 at 12:46 PM

I entirely agree. Removing premium pets from the realm of attainability for free-to-play users is a fast way to lose your userbase.

One thing I think could be a useful tool would be installing an earn cc feature; some apps utilise a 'watch an advert, receive 10 premium currency coins' scheme and I think that would hugely benefit eggcave. Not only would users be able to gradually save cc to stand a chance at attaining pets, but advert revenue would go up for Eggcave and would benefit future projects.

Other options could include surveys, referral schemes, etc.

Making cashcave ONLY attainable via actual money is a poor business plan. Hopefully the staff are willing to listen to the numerous outcries from their community.

Thanks for the ping, @quinoafuntime! I'm happy to chime in on topics like these.

nathreok • 26 March 2022 at 12:53 PM

@quinoafuntime ,

I mean, if there was a way to exchange EC for CC, it would slightly pose a problem. Especially for those who abuse the feature if it was made.

Now, if the CC was earned by certain quests that would be okay OR they can make achievement quest rewards (Different from the actual quests) More like account achievements or mile stones.

quinoafuntime • 26 March 2022 at 1:25 PM

@nathreok That's true, an EC to CC exchange might be abused. I like Prairie's suggestion because it includes a monthly cap for each account, which wouldn't completely get rid of the problem but would minimize it. That being said, something has to be done. The way it is now is worse than it would be if the EC to CC exchange feature was implemented, even if the system was abused by a few people.

I agree that it would be better to have CC be acquired through quests and achievements. That could take time to develop though, and I really think we need something soon. Since Ian is the only one doing the coding (I think), it could take years for an achievement system to be created. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

TLDR - I think that doing anything to solve the pay-to-play-ness of EggCave is better than doing nothing. And doing it soon is better than doing it later.

tryvegan4theanimals • 26 March 2022 at 1:52 PM

@ian I pledge to buy CC if a feature is implemented where people can get CC by playing the game, whatever that feature may be! I like the EC to CC terminal suggestion, but I also like the idea of missions/achievements too 😊

structuresfromsilence • 26 March 2022 at 3:27 PM

@quinoafuntime I agree with you. @Ian responded on February 17 here -

https://eggcave.com/forums/topic/76031?page=5

Can we get another update soon Ian?

nathreok • 26 March 2022 at 3:45 PM

@quinoafuntime ,

Yes the achievement/milestone would take time, but implementing an Exchange would also take time (and possibly the same amount of time). I used have a coder/website owner as a friend and honestly it's hard to code something new into a site like here.

Especially if the coders also have real life jobs too and it takes tome out of life and they also eventually lose sleep when it comes to new coding.

If anything Ian can come up with ideas first, second; rule down which would be better and not abused, along with the time it would take. Third; have a vote with the rest of the developers/admins.

It will take a bunch of time, but everything that comes to coding a site, takes time and users patience. Regardless if most are already anxiously waiting for something to be done now/soon.

cranberrycat1 • 26 March 2022 at 5:05 PM

I agree but the ec to cc would most likely be abused

I also agree on making a quest item

This is another idea - maybe add a cool down time for like a day or a special time to exchange like January 1 through Jan 7

autumnal • 26 March 2022 at 9:16 PM

I don't think that implementing an ec to cc exchange would take as much time as making an achievement system from the ground up. It would just be a page where you spend increments of 500k ec for 50 cc with a cap of 500 cc per player per month. Sounds pretty simple.

Judging by how quickly recent quality of life updates were implemented (the creator's mark and the improvements to the donation center), I don't think it would be time consuming to create an ec to cc terminal.

I'm not saying that it's a perfect plan, but at least it's something. I don't like the idea of having to wait years for the site to be accessible to players who can't spend money. I've already missed tons of rereleases, and it would suck to have to see many more go by.

viltuvitrast • 26 March 2022 at 9:26 PM

@quinoafuntime I completely agree. I feel very left out because I don't have much money to spend on this site. I like my time here but I feel like they don't care very much about players like me ☹️

greengrassoftunnel • 27 March 2022 at 11:59 AM

@nathreok "It will take a bunch of time, but everything that comes to coding a site, takes time and users patience. Regardless if most are already anxiously waiting for something to be done now/soon."

You might know this already, but @Ian stated back in 2010 that an EC to CC terminal would be created:

"EC can be converted into cash to be used at the cash shop... Egg Cave will ALWAYS BE FREE 😃"

I would have been fine with being patient back then, but it's been 12 years and this still isn't true. CC is still largely unobtainable for most of us, and the amount of content that we're missing despite the fact that we spend lots of time on the site is pretty sad.

I also agree with @autumnal that an EC to CC conversion terminal would be much simpler to implement than an achievement/daily mission system.

nathreok • 27 March 2022 at 12:04 PM

@greengrassoftunnel ,

That may be, but you also have to keep in mine that Ian has a life. Just like everyone and life is more important than internet

dougprishpreed • 27 March 2022 at 12:14 PM

@nathreok Ian has too much of a life to do what he said he would do 12 years ago? With respect, I don't buy it. This is also Ian's job, since I'm sure he makes a good deal of money from it.

Plenty of other site changes have happened in those 12 years, but not this one? That's why I want to put pressure on him to make eggcave less pay to play. The site is pretty broken now because nothing has been done about this.

nathreok • 27 March 2022 at 12:55 PM

@dougprishpreed ,

The more pressure you add, the more he won't possibly do it.

Would you want someone or everyone placing pressure on you? I sure as heck don't, which would also make me ignore everything and make others wait longer.

I'm sorry, but I feel bad for Ian being so pressured into making this that he's probably overwhelmed with it and I can see why he's taking a longer time to make it.

greengrassoftunnel • 27 March 2022 at 1:37 PM

@nathreok Well, what's the alternative? Say nothing and keep waiting? We've been waiting for 12 years. In my opinion, the less pressure we add, the more he won't possibly do it. It's only because so many people were talking about it that he finally responded (in the EC to CC terminal thread).

dougprishpreed • 27 March 2022 at 1:45 PM

I agree with you @greengrassoftunnel. Unfortunately, I don't think it's realistic to just be silent and hope that a company does what we want them to do. We need to vocalize our desires in order for there to be a chance that we are heard. I hope Ian doesn't feel stressed out by this, though. It's not my intention. I just really dislike how much this site is pay to play, and I think that it would be much better if CC was obtainable (in small amounts) for free players.

nathreok • 27 March 2022 at 2:13 PM

I also read up on what @Orderedchaos said.

I agree with them, so please just let Ian do what he can for the site and just be patient with him and the rest of the Eggcave staff and developers.

autumnal • 27 March 2022 at 2:51 PM

@greengrassoftunnel @dougprishpreed @nathreok I also think that we need to keep talking about this for there to be any hope that things will change any time soon.

nathreok • 27 March 2022 at 2:57 PM

@autumnal ,

I still believe we should let it lay.

Otherwise, like Orderedchaos said. Things may not get done.

So I ask, please do not ping me no more to this post/forum.

autumnal • 27 March 2022 at 3:10 PM

Sorry to ping you, I won't do it any more 😊

But I think it's wishful thinking to just hope that things will change without pushing. Maybe in some cases it works, but not in this one (judging by how long this has been a problem). And I think it's dangerous logic to threaten not to listen to someone if they vocalize what they're thinking/feeling. I don't see the developers of this site as people who do that, since Ian has been very good about listening to and adding many other suggestions to the site.

quinoafuntime • 27 March 2022 at 3:20 PM

Nice to see so many people posting on this thread. I'm glad that it's not just me who feels this way. I'll keep asking for updates because I'd love to see this site become even better than it already is 😊

aquafaba • 28 March 2022 at 12:49 PM

Thanks for the ping @quinoafuntime. I definitely agree with you that Eggcave is pay to play, and it's sad because I like the site a lot. I hope that @ian and the team is working on it.

@kataclysm said it well: "Making cashcave ONLY attainable via actual money is a poor business plan. Hopefully the staff are willing to listen to the numerous outcries from their community."