Implementing critique and suggestions

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 3:24 PM

First off, I created the Feggle and Pogknot. The Feggle was a sample piece I did after Ian had asked for a single creature, and the Pogknot (the egg and all three stages) was done within a five hour time frame due to another artist not pulling through on time. (I was also unaware of user suggestions, so for that I apologise- I didn't ignore any suggestions on purpose.) This is also split into two posts because I couldn't seem to fit everything onto the first one.

If that answers any questions, great, but I'm creating this thread for a very important reason.

I joined up to get a feel for the users, art style and creatures in general, in order to give the site what was wanted rather than pump out art, get paid, move on. Part of me wishes I hadn't cared, as the latter would have been far better for my artistic ego (which, I might add, is generally non-existent on the best of days). I found that the user base here doesn't seem used to the fact that the artists read their comments. Or perhaps they just don't care. Comments on the art style came fast and heavy, with most of them being just plain rude or insulting, rather than any real critique. I'm going to post some REAL examples of comments that were recieved on the Feggle and Pogknot, and explain what could have been done better in order to receive better art in the future.

---------
"AYEEEEE. I really do like the ideas, but who's doing the ART!? No offense, but IT SUCKS."

"I know, the coloring for the cave monthlies looks like a twelve-year-old did it... With WATER COLOR. I'm so disappointed..."

"If you are upset at the comments, learn to work more efficiently with the time constraints, because Qes could. You can too. Good luck."

The above comments give no constructive critique. They are insulting to the artist, and assume that either the artist is a robot, the artist isn't reading the comments, or that they're another artist entirely. We don't all work the same, I spend a week or more on a full, heavily detailed piece. Quick art is quick art, but we don't all work that way. (Also, as a personal opinion, there's nothing wrong with water colours.) I'd also like to point out that putting "no offence" into something doesn't automatically reduce the offence taken. I saw quite a few posts that were clearly meant to be offensive, only with the added "no offence" to it.

quadricat • 1 July 2013 at 3:27 PM

(The rest of pirr's message is continued below this post. Please read there first.)


Hey Pirr! I know we already discussed the pets but I thought I'd post an example of a good critique.

First, I find the shading to be a little lacking. I am not a fan of the glassy look, but bugs are chitinous in adult stages so a few shiny spots would be appropriate in this case!

Second, there isn't enough shadow and highlighting to really differentiate the body parts though, I would suggest going a little heavier with the shadows next time! Otherwise its a little visually confusing.

And lastly, I find the colors a bit plain. Maybe next time we could get a little more contrast in markings? I like the blue and gold theme but it is overly simple I think.

You did an excellent job given the incredibly short time frame though! ^^

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 3:27 PM

@quadricat Haha, thanks. Dang double posting.

You are ALL welcome to your opinion! However if you want change, if you want something new, if you dislike a certain style, you need to voice that in a way that isn't insulting an artists age or talent, and it needs to be clear and precise in what specifically they did wrong!

"I think it could use more shine and perspective"

"I'm beginning to think that if creatures a going to get better, the artists have got to know what all the users want and not just that their work is bad."


I really couldn't find many examples of good critique. These people didn't like the pets, but unlike the other comments, they were giving useful advice and suggestions on how they could improve. I know pleasing everyone isn't possible- within a hundred comments I saw half of the user base hate the shiny style and the other half say that the cave pets weren't shiny enough. I get that, but instead of saying "it sucks!", put in "I really don't like the shading style" or "I think the line art could have been done better" or even "I prefer a cartoon style rather than semi-realistic".

I'm also aware that a lot of people put effort into their pet suggestions, but it seems like they assume they're going to be used. While I hadn't known about the suggestions this month, if I am to stay and do art here (which... honestly is not looking likely thanks to the majority of the user base), I will be looking at suggestions but that DOES NOT mean a guarantee that your suggestion will be used!

Now, in conclusion before I start writing a novel, I really, truly appreciated all of the nice comments in PMs and on my profile. I know, with those, I could be willing to give Egg Cave a second chance, but honestly, guys, you really showed a poor, poor side of yourselves in the news comments today. Especially for a first-time viewer.

I'd love to hear GENUINE suggestions on what you want in the future for pets. Not critique on what has already been done, but your preferred art styles (I noticed no one really likes change around here), preferred shading, types of pets or even how many evolutions you guys like. If it turns into a raegfest of epic proportions like the news comments seem to be, I'll get this thread shut down. Please, please be civil.

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 3:29 PM

@pirran

Well, you have to give artist a break. There are 247 species currently in the Ark right now so you can't blame them for going on the lazy realm. I admire anything done by the artist because of their time and effort they put in to making us happy. After almost four constructive years of eggcave, I really do think the artist need a break.

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 3:38 PM

@kalateevolk I'm not sure if I mis-worded something, but I was the artist for this months cave pets. I certainly don't blame anything on the previous artist at all! I was simply stating that I only had a matter of hours to complete the pets, as the previous artist was a no-show for unknown reasons.

Orderedchaos • 1 July 2013 at 3:42 PM

@kalateevolk There are multiple artists for this site, not just one who is "getting lazy". And this kind of nasty behavior happens every time a new artist's work shows up, and to a lesser extent every month even with returning artist's work.

@pirran I heartily agree with everything you've posted. And I'm very sad to say that you've pretty much hit the nail on the head for how people react to new artwork here, lots of negative/rude comments and very little constructive or good critiques.

Many here do need to learn the difference between rude behavior and constructive criticism, one tears down an artist and their work, the other helps them produce better work in the future. I sincerely hope that this thread helps people learn the differences between the two so that the community can become better as a whole.

hayz • 1 July 2013 at 3:52 PM

@pirran

I thought your creatures were fabulous, especially under the 5 hour time limit.

What I would suggest is that you smooth out the shades of the colors over a larger area, so it wouldn't look like the creature's directly under the spotlight with light blasting the color off of the picture.

Despite that, your creatures are still amazing the way they are!

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 3:55 PM

@orderedchaos

I'm sorry if I sounded like that. I knew there were more than one artist. But what I was trying to say is that it's still amazing that it can match the egg cave style each time. And to those new artists, well done 😊 I think the creatures are just fine 😃

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 3:55 PM

@orderedchaos
Thank you for the comment, and yes I do agree wholeheartedly with you.

@hayz
Thank you so, so much for that! I like the sandwich effect of compliment, critique, compliment, haha, but even if it's just a descriptive critique with no compliment at all, it's so much easier to deal with and understand. I'll keep that in mind!

Also, for those of you who keep asking me, my other art examples are in my portfolio, the link is on my current Status. I keep getting messages about that, and I do understand that my work shrunk to the 90px stage does lose some detail. I'm working on that.

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 3:59 PM

@pirran

Haha! I didn't even notice that. I feel stupid 😋 I honestly think the creatures look nice but if you would like a few tips, I could help you. I noticed that the gradients seem a bit blurry. However, for such a few hours, that's really cool 😃 Like I said, I admire all of your guises work and hope to be like you some day. Even being rushed, you still matched the style perfectly 😉 (something I cannot do ☹️ )

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 4:01 PM

@kalateevolk

Thank you 😊 I'm not sure if people don't like the painted shading in general or if they prefer cell shading to make it a little crisper?

Deleted • 1 July 2013 at 4:08 PM

@pirran
I think that your creatures are honestly quite good. I don't think anyone could've pulled it off in just 5 hours. I like how you did the stinger on the Pogknot.
Only thing I would suggest is adding a bit of shine to the egg.
I do believe people are too harsh on you, you did only have 5 hours...

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 4:14 PM

@belilalas_25

Thank you, I will keep super-shiny for eggs in mind for the future, if I do anything more~

I also understand that art is seen in a new light if people understand the circumstances, but if they originally don't like it at first glance, then it's still not great art and needs to be improved upon.

bubblez • 1 July 2013 at 4:17 PM

@pirran

I really wish people here weren't so rude ;-; And then turn around and say they're just "critiquing"

Anyways, I've seen your work from your portfolio & I really think you already have a good style. The style you used on the spider cat is just amazing, and would be a great style for EggCave. Every artist here has their own style & your style will fit in perfectly here, once you get a chance to work for more than 5 hours ;p

I know others have said this, but regardless of how well done your work is, someone won't like it. But every artist here has dealt with that, and when it's one or two people, they usually just keep to them selves.

But I'm looking forward to seeing your work, and I'm glad you decided to give us another chance! \o/ 😊

Deleted • 1 July 2013 at 4:19 PM

@pirran
That was my first impression actually, then i realized you were a new artist and that you had a limit. I thought that it was made way longer than the time you had.

I must tell you this though, many people here will at first think of a new style as weird, but they soon get over it. I've seen it happen just a few months ago.

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 4:20 PM

@pirran

Well, it almost looks like you used a separate layer and drove opacity to a lower level. However, the light you have seems a bit too bright in some spots so it takes away from the effect. However, the eggs look really awesome! However, if you look to whom ever drew the Cash shop monthlies, this trick seems to work because they got the angle just right for the shading. The other thing is eggcave tends to use a thicker black outline; and if you use layers, make the out line of your drawing black and set it to a lower opacity if it's too dark. Due to the textures you use, I would suspect you use a tablet (if so, I'm jealous), another thing is most creatures tend to have a solid base--and if they do have texture, it would be fur or scales.

This is just what I observe however XD I am going to have a creature suggestion up sometime soon to show you how I view it the art. Granted, my mouse hates me, but I tend to draw things as to what egg cavers might like. It may not look exact to designs, but it could give you a brief idea as to what people want to see. It's unfinished, but this is how I draw. Or at least, I hope you can see it XD: http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/182/7/2/vosarain_by_mendaleave-d6bj4j6.png

I'm not trying to advertise anything, but I would recommend studying the creatures in the archives or maybe other suggestions to get an idea on you next big project. You may find some helpful details that could lead you to success. Also alkaline on deviant art has enhanced images of some of the creatures for you to look at.(I have no idea what their account is here.) But it could be useful if you like details.

http://alkaline00.deviantart.com/

chowchow2012 • 1 July 2013 at 4:32 PM

@pirran

As I said in the blog I appreciated the new creatures, but I said the style was a bit different. But then I hadn't realized you were in the rush to do it, I mean I would rather have had these released than no critters at all. I think on your art profile some are really quite good! I just want to say thanks to you for trying to do this, and I really did enjoy the concepts I think if you had been given more time it would have had a better result~

Also a few "constructive" comments about the art are:

The cell shading looks are bit too evident, possibly decrease the opacity? In my opinion I feel that the Pogknot has a bit too much smudging I think it be possibly to set a layer under it in the mode "multiply" shade in those areas instead of smudging.(If it has been smudged) Also I would recommend looking at the more recent egg cave works of art just to get a sense a style that eggcave uses. In addition I believe that most eggcave creatures have that distinctive "shine" to them, well not "over-done" a bit is helpful! To add to my suggestions, I would like to see more "blur" on the shading and on certain areas EX. on the pogknots egg you see 2 distinctive layers of shading in the bottom right. I would use the blur tool to soften the pixels on both of the shades. Then it would like more like an outwards fade 😊

Thanks for reading! I hope you keep drawing and I'll always try to support you 😊

(Random question, What program do use to draw? I'm a GIMP users so suggestion above may or may not have same results and such)

newlife • 1 July 2013 at 4:43 PM

@pirran
To be entirely truthful, I didn't like the creatures when they came out. But I always look closer at the details, and you did a very good job in 5 hours. I think I would have needed a day just to do what you did.
Here are some suggestions you could take into mind when you do future work.

-Blur. Blurring the shading makes it seem better and more realistic, and might make more users like it more. But too much shadowing/blurring can make some of the people on here crazy. So I advise, blur just what needs to be blurred

-Basing the creature off of something real. I always find it wonderful to base my creatures off of something, so I can go back and look at the design of the body. Then you had add any other details that make it unique.

I hope this helps in your future work. Good job for making such beautiful creatures in such a short time frame.

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 4:53 PM

@kalateevolk

Thank you for your very descriptive post, your links will help me a lot! I do use a tablet, but I don't use the layers you describe for most of it. I use a custom brush for a lot of my shading, which can be seen in better detail on my portfolio under "digital paintings". I think it comes out blurred because of such a small resolution for cave pets, but practise should fix that in time. I haven't had much work with such small objects.


@chowchow2012

Thank you, too, for your feedback! It was very helpful! I use Photoshop CS5.1 for most of the colouring, and Fire Alpaca (a free downloadable program) for the lines.


@newlife

I appreciate the compliments, and I'll keep in mind the suggestions over blurring shading on here 😊

Deleted • 1 July 2013 at 5:04 PM

@pirran The cave monthlies aren't my favorite, but considering the time limit you had to do it, they look

A
M
A
Z
I
N
G
.

They are unique, so keep that up. If you don't want to base t off something, Mix a couple of things! I once tried to do a horse, cat and bird thing xP Keep up the amazing work! I never looked at them closely, but I will get ack to you with some constructive comments.

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 5:06 PM

@pirran

What program do you use?

Deleted • 1 July 2013 at 5:09 PM

@pirran I love Feggle, AS I love reptiles, and I love the spike on the bottom of the egg, although in the furture I would recommend making the eyes easier to see.

The pogknot is not my favourite, but it is the most unique creature I have ever seen on eggcave. Honest truth.

chowchow2012 • 1 July 2013 at 5:09 PM

@pirran

No problem! I think GIMP has a friendly user interface though ( I do own a CS5 copy of photoshop too) my personal preference though.

Anyways Do you want to do a "join me" anytime soon for drawing? (A computer screen sharing program, on-line no downloading) I'd be fun to see your style in action and we can help critic each other. 😋

Well great work on the monthlies for 5 hours! (Your work is probably better than mine anyways XD)

fakeworld • 1 July 2013 at 5:12 PM

@pirran Honestly, we need to thank people like you that's willing to put the time and effort into designing a creature for us all, because not everyone here, including myself do not have the ability nor artistic skills to do such. I love how different the creature is, we don't always need that typical looking texture on every release, your originality was high and that's all that matters. You was respectful and mature enough to point that out without showing a sign of disrespect, you fully explained yourself in a way majority of the others can't. I adore you. Also, keep up the good work. 😊

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 5:13 PM

@dramatic
Thank you for all of your compliments 😊 I'll keep that in mind about the eyes.

@kalateevolk
For those pets, I used a mixture of Fire Alpaca (a free program) for the line art, and Photoshop CS5.1 for the lines. I have a tiny Bamboo tablet that I work with, and I use several custom brushes for colouring.

@chowchow2012
I don't often do streaming (in fact, I'm pretty sure I've used livestream a total of twice in my entire life) as I have a little baby daughter, who tends to interrupt anything I do on a regular basis. I'd be happy to show you works in progress at various stages on bigger pieces in the future, though.

@fakeworld
Thank you for your kind words! They're inspirational~

Deleted • 1 July 2013 at 5:14 PM

@pirran No problem. Those people don't know what they're saying, you're an amazing artist. Keep it up withe bright colours for the eyes, it tmakes them stand out. Orange and neon yellow are perfect.

kalateevolk • 1 July 2013 at 5:15 PM

@pirran

You should really think on using layers in Photoshop. It can really help.

chowchow2012 • 1 July 2013 at 5:15 PM

@pirran
Ah no problem! I have several younger siblings and understand , and thanks I'll look forward to seeing you draw more creatures! 😊

faybaybay • 1 July 2013 at 5:18 PM

@pirran hi! I'd like to formally apologize for being so rude on the blog. I didn't realize how Pressed for time you were when you drew the creatures. It really is nice to see a new egg she artist ^^

pirran • 1 July 2013 at 5:19 PM

@kalateevolk
I might have mis-worded something earlier, sorry! I do use layers, but I don't use the opacity layers that was mentioned earlier, for shading. My shading is almost all on one layer with a custom brush, for these pets. It depends on what I'm colouring, to be honest. (Fur, for example, takes many layers)

@chowchow2012
Thank you!

@faybaybay
Thanks for the apology, I just don't think a lot of the user base are used to the artists reading their comments? Either way, I appreciate the apology and I'm glad you understand the circumstances behind these specific pets.