Non-Binary Creatures

kataclysm • 19 August 2022 at 5:39 AM

I've been thinking this a lot, lately, and not (strictly) from an LGBTQIA+ mindset. If you're willing to consider some of the creatures that are a part of EggCave - like the crypto, the soith, the lumisage - it doesn't really make sense why these item-style creatures have genders. The goolime, a blob of gelatinous substance, also isn't likely to have a binary gender. I could write an essay on the hermaphroditic potential in creatures that exist as genetically manufactured products, but I won't.

Plain and simple, the genders don't mean anything in regards to creatures. They don't differentiate creatures at all (though I would love it if they did - think Pokémon, where a female Pikachu has slightly shorter ears than the male - different colorations depending on gender would be really interesting and would incentivise members to actually give thought to the gender of their creatures) and they don't add anything to collecting creatures.

I guess what I'm saying is that gendered creatures need a rethink. We can't breed our pets, so what does it matter if they're male or female? In an ideal world, I think it would be great if gendered pets were different from one another in some way, but I also think it's important to remove the option of gender in the first place. I don't want to think that my Holoton - a creature that is 'almost wholly digital' - needs to be biologically identified by a binary system in a world that is anything but binary.

And though I don't make this post with representation at the heart of the matter, I do maintain that representation is important. Let us have non-binary creatures. Pets that don't have genders, or can change (imagine!) genders at the click of a drop-down button.

I mean, why not? What reason is there to not do this, really?

heatherm19 • 19 August 2022 at 9:56 PM

While I 100% support this idea from an LGBTQIA+ mindset, I also support it because of other points you made. It does seem strange and, well, just plain inaccurate to slap a gender onto object-creatures just because having genders is a default. Galiscope, Soith, Fudain, Bauble... Objects don't have genders (I'm aware some languages use gendered object-words, but that doesn't mean the object literally has a gender).

And what about the space creatures that are literally stars/planets/etc? Things like that don't have genders either. Reading the Yill's description makes it pretty obvious it's not a 'creature' that would have a 'gender', and yet it does.

I also think there could be some creativity to be had when it comes to Asteroid creatures.... Why are literal aliens being assigned human-determined genders? That's just kinda weird. I know it's most likely that a creature-collecting game isn't going to want to get too into the whole concept of gender, but my mind has already come up with a ton of lore ideas surrounding the differences with aliens/etc.

At the very least, I think we shouldn't *have* to choose a gender for our creatures (or have the game 'surprise' us), it would be nice to have a 'no gender' option as well that simply wouldn't display any sort of gender symbol on the creature.

snowywinter • 19 August 2022 at 10:08 PM

@kataclysm

I agree, even from the practical perspective not having the gender actually affect anything (i.e. breeding or looks,) I find it usually more of an inconvenience more than anything aesthetically speaking. (So easy for the outdated gender colors to clash with the species' color scheme.)

I've longed for them just to do away with gender altogether.

I know a lot of people actually enjoy having the gender there.
I think you bring up a nice middle-ground. Having a drop-down to choose gender (including 'none') would be nice. It could be an option like changing Star color. Maybe instead of the current gender stones, we could have one that would activate the drop-down menu?

Would I pay to switch all of my current creatures to genderless? probably not... but there are a few that it's bothered me to no end and probably would.

Creatures like the Xemme definitely deserve a 'non-binary' or 'other' option.

Ian • 26 August 2022 at 4:02 PM

@kataclysm @heatherm19 @snowywinter this featured is CONFIRMED and is coming: non-binary creatures!

Stay tuned. ❤️ Thanks for the awesome suggestion.

cranberrycat1 • 26 August 2022 at 4:31 PM

Yay!!! 😊

snowywinter • 26 August 2022 at 5:54 PM

@Ian Y a A aa AAA ! ! ! Thank you and the Eggcave team!

Thank you @kataclysm for posting the subject! : D
and @heatherm19 for weighing in too : )

kataclysm • 26 August 2022 at 5:57 PM

This is such lovely news to sign on and see! Thanks, Ian!

Meteoroid • 26 August 2022 at 8:28 PM

Gonna be great for a non-binary option to finally be available on the website! It is something that I have also wished to see for some time now partly in due to the Tenalp and other such creatures, which @heatherm19 pointed out and I absolutely agree with (Pareteorsites would be another example of a creature where gender is trivial to it from an in-universe perspective). It'd be interesting to provide some functionality, too, perhaps.

This opens up a new avenue of creature customization and I can't wait to see it. Thanks, @Ian. And thank you for the suggestion, @kataclysm. 😊

snowywinter • 12 September 2022 at 4:52 PM

Was in my shop today and noticed the gender symbol was gray. Started asking myself if it had always been like that or if it was new. Then i remembered this thread. Checked this leaderboard and it seems about half the creatures are displaying as gray too (though is seems more males than females are affected?)

Is it related to code being tested?
@Ian

wonder404exe • 12 September 2022 at 5:07 PM

@snowywinter omg/!/!? :0 JUST SAW THAT wasnt there this morning+noon

heatherm19 • 12 September 2022 at 5:34 PM

I saw that too, noticed the gender symbols on all auctions were black (or grey, I guess). Assuming it has to do with this suggestion, I'm so excited to see what's coming!

snowywinter • 12 September 2022 at 6:04 PM

i dunno... I've even paid CC to match colors to creatures. I'm excited for the non-binary option, but at the same time wouldn't want all the colors stripped.
(maybe it'll be a default. Maybe we'll get to chose color like with stars. Maybe they'll all be gray from now on.)

Deleted • 13 September 2022 at 9:36 AM

Tbh, I'd prefer If our creatures had no gender symbol at all, so people could simply interpret a creature the way they want. *shrugs* That would solve everything. x)

prairie • 13 September 2022 at 12:30 PM

@snowywinter I too am guilty of that LOL. I love the pink and blue color VS a dark grey symbol next to the name. So I'd be a bit disappointed if the colors go away.

But, at the same note...
@sinthr I definitely agree with you LMAO. When I first joined I wished we didn't have to worry/have a choice to buy or get a certain gender for aesthetic purposes somehow.
But I think by this point, since they have gender changes in the CC shop, that they can't necessarily be changed.


I guess another thing that might be neat, talking about gender & gender changes in the CC, is that I never quite got *why* there's a 'purpose' to buy a gender change other than aesthetic, especially since theres no real reason to get both male and female since there's not a breeding aspect to this game (and I personally don't think there should be). But if there were gender-specific stages/creatures, it'd open up the door for more uses.
By that, I mean creature species that are originally only male/female, but can be changed with a venus/mars stone. Or species that can evolve/hatch into one version or another (gender can be changed while still in pre-branch stage to go to the gender stage you want?).
Being creatures that 'branch off' depending on gender would need more art, it'd likely only be a once-a-year type thing or smthn.
Just something to consider as well @Ian.

myriadium • 13 September 2022 at 4:50 PM

now that the nonbinary creatures update is out, i do like the concept behind it but i'm quite sad to see the colorful symbols go. i understand that maybe because having pink and blue be gendered colors is stereotypical or whatever, but i just generally liked having more color to the creature's icons. a grey or a purple would be great for the nb creatures, and adds more color to a creature's profile.

(also uhhh i kinda have trouble remembering the symbols for male and female so the colors help differentiate at a glance lol it's just more convenient for me)

snowywinter • 13 September 2022 at 4:56 PM

@sinthr "I'd prefer If our creatures had no gender symbol at all, so people could simply interpret a creature the way they want."
Perfectly, simply, eloquently stated! Agree 100%

@prairie "But I think by this point, since they have gender changes in the CC shop, that they can't necessarily be changed. "
Yup. They won't change that. It makes the site money. So being the case as it is... . ... *shrug* *goes with the flow*


exactly. Having genders only makes me *wish* we could breed them. Even if it didn't do anything cool other than make more of a species. Give players another way to make EC.

I discussed my ideas for this at length in some thread months ago (year ago?) but I'm too tired to look for it.
In short though something about how the time it takes for one to hatch would be determined by the creature's rarity. And so would the amount of EC you'd have to pay to breed one. (Having like the rarest creature perhaps even take up to a year or two to produce an egg.)

new thought- (But the cost of breeding would not be something that would tank the economy. The site algorithm perhaps could factor in sales prices for the past three years? - if it even tracks something like that. Maybe it's a feature that could start doing that, to be rolled out later. - but it would be like 70% of the average?)
new nixed - a breeding stone (CC) that would grant users permission to breed creatures (would have to have one in addition to spending the EC per breeding.) (Only need one, like a Leaf of Vaka. Removable)

This is starting to turn into a separate topic. lol.

prairie • 13 September 2022 at 5:25 PM

@snowywinter I know I've seen many breeding topics before.
But as I stated before, I don't think breeding should be a schematic in this game. This is due to rarities and then - the bigger bit - CC creatures. With the VEND, and re-releases, I think this isn't a aspect that's needed.
While I do agree this might make the need for genders completely void, I just don't see that being something that's a smart move for the site overall - in gameplay/trading or site income.
But that's a whole other discussion.

@myriadium
I DEFINETLY agree lol. I'm lowkey getting a headache trying to differentiate between the male, female and non-binary symbols at a first glance. The universal grey color makes each feel... the same/ununique. Aesthetically, I also really don't like the large dark blob right under the pretty creature image. I liked it much more when we had the lighter colors of the symbols.
I'd love to see a light grey, gold or purple color for non-binary creatures.

snowywinter • 13 September 2022 at 5:48 PM

@prairie *nods* I see it both ways.
I just started another virtual pet game less than 48 hours ago... and let's just say I was proverbially kissing the simplistic ground when I got back to Eggcave.


Ian just announced on the blog that the colored symbols were never meant to go away and that he's bringing it back. The site will take a few hours to update.
(jeeze my former post was long! Putting new text first.)
re reply @/myriadium
head swirling trying to figure it out. Not easy at a quick glance.
And the sameness reminds me of when any institution tries to take away the things that makes someone an individual. Like school and uniforms. (that's a whole debate in and of itself in generalities, on benefits and such... but I know it was so critical for my mental well being that I got to express myself through my clothing in high school.) And I look back at the way Indigenous peoples have been stripped of their very cultures and abused(putting it lightly) through government and religious run schools.
The dark things that have been done to so many people the world over in the name of conformity ran through my mind, and made my blood run cold the first few times I seen the symbols start to show up gray. ...and to find out that's being done here permanently.
I don't mean to sound so morbid, but that's how I really felt (no matter how diplomatic I'm trying to be about it.) It's a nauseous, sinking feeling.
(I'm somewhere between 'Paint it Black' and 'Another Brick in the Wall' - well, the lyrics trying to roll into my head anyhow. Yesterday it was conjuring up images from Pleasentville**. Now it's saying it's like Wizard of Oz in reverse.
**Le *gasp* It's finally available free on streaming! Maybe I'll watch that tonight after Leonardo.
- *me realizing the things that my brain is recollecting are probably older than over half the players that are even going to read this thread* >.< )