Can you REALLY trust creature value guides?

darkwarrior • 15 June 2019 at 6:09 PM

Ah, the ol' creature value guide. Something an experienced player strives hard to perfect and finesse. Days laboring over a keyboard, hunched over, determined to get every last one.

Can you really trust them, though?

How reliable are they, really?

Creature value guides are often inaccurate. Some creatures are listed for an extremely high price. People end up paying hundreds of thousands of EC more than they really need to. Is a Dalahart really worth as much as 350k EC? Would you actually pay 50 CC for a Froplet?

Overpriced, overpriced, overpriced.

Very often, the creator of the guide uses an algorithm or formula to create their guide. For example, a monthly may start at 10000 EC, and go up 10000 EC per month after that. But what they don't factor in is the demand and popularity of the creature, or how common a creature is. A Froplet is extremely common with a population rank of 102, and very much not in high demand. Not many are willing to pay 50 CC for one of those little goobers.

The bottom line: don't rely on creature value guides.

It really saddens me to see people being sticklers to a guide as if it's some sort of sacred almanac.

"I'll trade you [creature] for [reasonable price]!"
"No. According to [user]'s creature guide, the price is actually [something unreasonably overpriced]!"

What's better is to actually do research. Invest the time to look into something you really want before buying.

Newer players, find yourself an experienced player who is willing to share their advice on creature worth. Older players, ask your friends for help. See if you can find better deals. Look for more options and offers. Maybe someone else has a creature they're willing to trade for a price that isn't so ridiculous it'll knock the hair off your head when you see it.

And for sellers? Be flexible.

You aren't going to be able to sell much if you only stick to one price. People will get frustrated with you.

Think, before you ask.

It's worth noting that the creators of creature value guides work extremely hard to make something for the public and face constant criticism even when they've done us good. They should be applauded for their efforts, not reprimanded. Creature value guides can be excellent starting points for trades, and many of the approximate values are completely accurate.

Maybe next time, though, avoid paying 50 CC for a Froplet and only receiving 150k EC for a Kyootie.

immortalraven • 15 June 2019 at 7:12 PM

@darkwarrior
I agree with you on the value guides.

Froplet, heck no, not gonna pay 5oCC for one. I have enough trouble just getting 6o,oooEC for one so when I see someone wanting 5oCC and then some newer person or returning person ending up trading that much for it [which is still rare, but sometimes] cause they don't know they can usually be found much lower, I'm like WHY?! And here I am still stuck with mine even though mine was severely less. It's frustrating and annoying.

Kyootie on the other hand I think 15o,oooEC for is a reasonable price.

In the end values are just opinions and everyone can have a somewhat different opinion on it.

I like that there isn't just one guide floating around though. I rather more than one so people can compare values to them if they are using a guide. Guides shouldn't be considered set in stone.

Wish more people entered their trades and such on eggcavity more though. Takes the average of what people enter which is pretty much what I've done the whole time of me being on this site.

anarchy • 15 June 2019 at 7:51 PM

@darkwarrior
I agree that value guides shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of creature trading, and that traders should be flexible and not expect every trade to align perfectly with what the guides say, but I still think they're useful for getting a sense of values and determining whether a trade is at least in the right ballpark or not. I'm constantly going on hiatus and coming back, and I'd be pretty lost without the guides around.

From what I've seen the value guides actually do take demand and popularity into account though. Both Budgie's and Egg Cavity are updated based on user feedback rather than an algorithm, which means popularity and frequency of trades will have a big effect on a creature's value. That's why the Tawny is valued significantly higher than the rest of the 2014 CRWs, for example.

I think there's pros and cons to using user feedback, on one hand it's a good way to determine a creature's market value in real time, on the other I also think it's susceptible to causing over-inflation, since people are more likely to report trades when their creatures are sold for higher than the current value. It's also possible people might report trades inaccurately if they want to manipulate a certain creature's value. And of course not all trades are reported so the values are limited to a certain sample size.

But overall I agree that guides should be more of a starting point than an absolute truth. Personally I tend to use both value guides but also take my own personal opinion into account on whether a trade is worth it or not.

A bit of a tangent, but I also think that creature values have inflated to an unreasonable level. The fact that Onny's, for example, are valued at $900 in actual currency is insane :s But that's a whole 'nother can of worms altogether.

(Also I'm curious who's side account this is o.o)

darkwarrior • 15 June 2019 at 8:39 PM

@immortalraven
Good points. I'll add to the topic above.

Eh, I think 150k EC is a tad underpriced for a Kyootie, but as you said, it's really a user's opinion that puts a value on a creature.

And yeah, I remember the days when a Froplet was so common, you would want one even if someone gave it to you for free. I had about ten of them- at 50 CC each, that would make me 500 CC richer according to a value guide. If only.

@anarchy
You're right, Budgie's does take in popularity and demand, and she does a pretty good job trying to incorporate other's opinions. However, her value guide is where I got the pricing for the Froplet I keep mentioning.

And, as for the Onny price- that's insane. 900 dollars??? With that much money, one could buy 211 pumpkin spice lattes. One could buy 45 hardcover books. One could buy a year's worth of super high-speed internet.

People from 2010 are really rolling in CC now. I'm jealous.

anarchy • 15 June 2019 at 9:45 PM

@darkwarrior
Hmm I'm guessing Froplets were reported with a higher value when they first came out and were in high-demand. And then once a few days passed and more of them were in circulation, their value dropped, but since people are less likely to report values lower than what's on the guide, it was never properly reflected. At least that's my guess. But yeah I guess that's a good example of how the guides aren't always infallible.

And yeah an Onny is worth more than a month's rent for a room in my city o.o

Preeettty crazy to think about.

beta • 7 July 2019 at 11:17 AM

Just saying, you only provide 2-3 examples of bad things, and there are like 730 species. So really they're more reliable than you make them seem. Also ec/cc is less desirable at the moment when compared to creatures, so yes, prices have inflated. No one ever said they were the only prices you can use, and many users sell for much less/more. Some people wont even sell there creatures for the price on guide, but more. Such as rhinedorf ;P

I really hope that wasnt a bump 😋. Sorry if it was

wigglytuff • 7 July 2019 at 4:18 PM

(Does EggCavity have an algorithm that doesn't count way under/over values? Like if someone submitted a value of like 1000000CC for a cave common that would... uh... y'all get it)

@darkwarrior yeah, I agree. I don't mean to be rude or offensive to any of the guide makers since I know that they spend tons of time and effort making and editing them. But personally, I think that guides should (like you mentioned) have more research than just putting in values that people say because of just one trade ^^

I definitely don't think that people should stop trusting value guides, but instead of having other people suggest values and the guide taking them in, there should be more thought and research done 😊

beta • 7 July 2019 at 4:22 PM

@wigtufits already happening. It was happening way before this post was created. You can look on the forum of budgies, you'll see "hey, this creature seems a bit low/high" and a "oh right, updated". But you cant just use the value and not haggle at all unless that's what you want.

darkwarrior • 17 July 2019 at 4:52 PM

@stevepat2002
Yes, I did only provide 2-3 examples. That doesn't mean that there aren't more. I'd estimate for there to be maybe 20+ inaccuracies in the guide.
And why should we allow those mistrades to happen at all? Why should people be allowed to believe false information?
Let's also compare this to a different scenario.
The English dictionary contains 171,476 words. By using the same ratio above (20 inaccuracies to 730 species), we get a total of about 4697 inaccuracies. That's 4697 incorrect words! This might sound like an exaggeration to you, but we can't stand by and allow people to receive false information. Even if there is one inaccuracy, people have the right to sill be wary of the creator's credibility.

There are absolutely people that I've tried to trade with who only strictly follow value guides.

Yeah, budgie's guide does have feedback. But feedback can come from people who don't know their values too well, which in turn hinders the system. Also, prices of monthlies increase every month, and we surely know that no one has the time to update every single monthly price that frequently.

Moreover, you seem to have forgotten that budgie's guide is not the only guide on this website.

And as @wigglytuff pointed out, we aren't trying to discredit the creators or shame their guides into oblivion, rather, we want to suggest that people put more research in before they complete a trade.

budgie • 17 July 2019 at 5:54 PM

Popping in just to see if anyone has a better ball park for the Froplet price. I'm glad to see the conversations, values are more or less up for personal interpretation ^^

Orderedchaos • 17 July 2019 at 6:04 PM

Let's try to keep things civil here, please.

If any more inflammatory posts show up I will have to close this topic.

chaotictreat • 4 October 2019 at 12:07 AM

I do sometimes think that some values on the guides could be more accurate, but the guides are just meant to be guides, after all. Some people do stick to those prices exactly, which can get annoying occasionally, but maybe for them, looking at creature price guides is the equivalent of asking more experienced players or friends. The pricing guides can't be easy to keep up to date, what with 773 creatures in Eggcave and counting! I can see both sides of the argument here, and I think perhaps we all need to try a little harder with this, not just one side or the other.

Not saying anyone's wrong here, because I don't think that anyone is. I just think that the pricing issues are not really anyone's fault in particular. I hope I didn't offend anyone, have a nice day!

ryepuff • 4 October 2019 at 3:54 AM

I’d rather just look at value guides than ask someone the individual pricing that they would give to that creature. I don’t really have time to inquire with a player.

luv • 5 October 2019 at 5:53 AM

@anarchy
Chuckling to myself here as the person who actually traded the onny for 82k and probably inspired that particular value guide entry-- it's worth more than my rent too, which I had never thought about until now (a mildly terrifying thought at that).

Although I've also probably bought 211 lattes in my time, and do certainly own more than 45 hardcover books, so I suppose I'm checking all the boxes lol.

Anyways, on the topic at hand, I think someone said something like this but value guides are immeasurably helpful for people like me: those that have spent years just kind of coming and going from the site, and have a long history of making bad deals because my values are notoriously awful (thank you to all my friends who have put up with my constant questions for years). So I don't think the point of them is to trust in them implicitly anyway, rather, to make sure I'm not the user who comes back and thinks a solis and a lal would be "probably close to the same price, right?" 😉