A discussion about the February creature suggestions

ida92 • 1 February 2024 at 5:13 AM

Hello!

I felt like addressing what has been going on the comments uder the Site Blog post. I would like to start with asking everyone to remain respectful. We want a construtive discussion, not a hate spill.

I also want to mention that I greatly respect @Ian and all the Egg Cave team for all the hard work they put into keeping this site going. It's not an easy job. I have tried many pet sites, but this one has the best art and the best "vibes" of them all.

Having that said, I would like to express my feelings. I think that the artists whose suggestions get picked deserve a bit more credit and respect. Changing the design entirely (like in the case of Bunvun) or even changing two stages, while keeping the description unchanged, thus creating inconsistencies (like in the case of Empercora), can be perceived by the original artists as a bit disrespectful. It can feel unfair to look at a creature in the Archives, see your username under it and realise it's an entirely different creature than what you have suggested.

It can't be that hard to just copy a suggestion and create it ito a digital form. I understand that in some cases, the creature may need cosmetic changes, for various reasons. But changing everything is not cosmetics anymore.

I also uderstant that the artist feel the need to express themselves, but that's why they can come up with their own designs. It doesn't have to be all user suggestions, every month.

How do you peeps feel, what are your thoughts?

senkou • 1 February 2024 at 7:58 AM

@ida92 @ian

THANK YOU for officially bringing this issue to light, i totally agree. and i must say this is probably the most disappointed i've been in eggcave since i joined 9 years ago... I have been talking to other users who also agree that such big and unannounced changes to our suggestions ruins the fun of it altogether.

In the instance of the bunvun, it had sentimental value to me (unlike my other suggestions), which is why i wrote multiple times in the forum thread that it was based on my real life cat. Despite this, the artist completely changed characteristic aspects of the creature from the fur colour (brown> grey/purple), muted colours, down to the baby size, which i EXPLICITLY stated multiple times and was what users supported MOST about my design, leading to it being made... These are all things that the artist could have easily implemented into the design. This also relates back to the empercora as i remember seeing users supporting the CUTENESS of it at the baby stage (including myself) but the eggcave artist's rendition has a totally different look, not the mention the egg which was completely changed.

I understand that adding eggcave artists' own touch is important, but I just don't understand why whole designs have to be changed in order to suit their style (when it wasn't even their concept to begin with...?) It's very upsetting and disregards the time and effort that the original artists put into their suggestion. I was happy with the final designs of the elsara and catsmos (done by a different artist) which proves that it is possible to add their own touch WHILE staying true to the original design. I just don't understand why this isn't consistent with the other artists (to the point of creating a CLEAR preference to one artist compared to the other). Safe to say I would rather not suggest at all than for this to be the outcome of my effort and time.

Re-iterating on what you said ida, this is no disrespect to ian as I understand how difficult the job must be and am very very grateful to you for creating and running this game we are all so passionate about!! I'm just very very frustrated at the moment and hope something can be done about this. I believe such obvious and unwanted changes like this shouldn't be allowed to pass especially without notifying the original artist, and i think the easiest way to prevent this is letting us CHOOSE which eggcave artist carries out our suggestion. In my case i'm SURE i would be a lot more satisfied if the december artist drew the bunvun instead of this one. It would also be great if ian could re-iterate to the artists to follow our notes, especially if we went out of our way to explicitly type out key characteristics we wanted to see in the final design.

Anyways, won't be pinging the users i've spoken with out of courtesy, but i know there's a lot of creators that are unhappy with the current system and would agree that more acknowledgement needs to be given to the original suggestors....

opalquinze • 1 February 2024 at 8:04 AM

i’ll admit that as much as i don’t mind this artist doing these suggestions for this month, i feel like there could’ve been some feedback between the staff/site artist with the creator if said changes were acceptable. it’s understandable that the artist can’t show much of the progress to the creator for feedback (as i feel like that would spoil the surprise), so maybe any staff member available could relay to the creator instead? the staff don’t have to be super descriptive bout it, just a few words bout said changes so that the creator will get more of how their suggestion(s) will turn out.

of course, this will depend on either end’s schedule, so there prob be a lot of delays if communication isn’t instant

kataclysm • 1 February 2024 at 8:23 AM

I agree - there needs to be a bit of a rethink around suggestions being made into actual creatures. In many cases, it seems as though EC users are putting a lot of passion into designing their creatures mindfully. Users aren't just throwing out 'wouldn't it be cool if we had a fish that was also a valentine's candy?' or 'Check out this egg that is also an aquatic creature'. When designs are picked and they have so much thought and work put behind them, it starts to feel kind of insulting when that work is dismissed without any communication on the matter. I can understand designers deciding to do less/contribute less when they're being treated that way.

I also understand that it's kind of devastating when you design something meaningfully and it's completely changed with no input from the person that designed it. I can't think of another setting where that kind of procedure is acceptable? Can you imagine, like, commissioning an artist to professionally produce a piece based on your design, and they do something totally different without any consultation and that's just how it is, no reworks/refunds/rethinks available? It doesn't happen.

It's one thing to take a loose concept or design and go creatively wild with it, but when someone has clearly put in a lot of effort to produce a concept that is detailed and has specific requests - i.e 'I'd love the first stage to be tiny' - it really moves away from the spirit of submitting a user-suggested design in the first place.

I think a fix, or a reconsideration of how we suggest creatures, would be to start using a form or something where the amount of information submitted actually contributes to the final outcome. If I complete that form in total, the artist that receives it should know what they're being asked to produced. But if I only fill in half the form and leave other spaces blank, that should invite the creative freedom.

Or, you know, the artists or the EC staff rethink what a 'collaboration' means and engages with the user that suggested the design before any work gets done.

I think it's great that EC opens the door for its community to participate in the creatures on site, and I appreciate the work that this takes to achieve. I'm sure there's no small amount of work involved, but this entire process needs to be redefined and rethought because it's starting to feel like the members no longer matter and it's just about getting 'design concepts' for free from the userbase.

ida92 • 1 February 2024 at 8:30 AM

@senkou @opalquinze Thank you both for your comments.

I remember seeing the Loveer being released and not being 100% happy with the final stage, but overall - it was pretty consistent with my suggestion, so it didn't bother me. It's ok if the artists just add their touches to the original design or make small, necessary changes (for example - if the suggestion was made by a small child, who can't really draw well yet and is pretty wonky - but the concept is great). I just don't feel like changing the whole concept is the right thing to do.. And like @/senkou mentioned - I'd rather not suggest at all than have the whole suggestion completety changed.

ashlinnhi • 1 February 2024 at 10:47 AM

This is definitely an important discussion to be had and I'm glad it's been brought up. Of course, it's still necessary to acknowledge and respect the hard work of the site artists, whether we're happy with final results or not — in the end, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

With that being said, I think the biggest shame is that users become discouraged from making future suggestions, out of fear that the details they poured their hearts into will be discarded. While disappointing, it's understandable if some things won't make it in for whatever reason. However, as others have stated, this needs to be communicated from site to users. I feel that it's only fair if the original creators are at least notified beforehand if their idea has been modified in any shape.

I like @/kataclysm's idea of making a form, although the freedom of the forums already allows users to specify which aspects to prioritise. But at the very least, I agree there needs to be transparency around user suggestions as a whole — perhaps an update to the pinned disclaimer and policies post. It really would be devastating if user suggestions declined because of something like this, as there is so much creativity and inspiration to be found through this community.

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 1:37 PM

Going to put a few statements I voiced in the Blog here too; for the sake of it.

I totally get the want for Creature Suggestor's Suggestions to be close to their original concept; however. As an artist who does artwork for sites like Eggcave, I do have opinions on how hard people are pressing back on how their Suggestion is used.
(Also, quick note: I'm an inactive artist here on EC and preferred item work.)

1.) Suggestion Art is treated like Concept Art. What is Concept Art? "Concept art is [art] used to convey an idea for use [media] before it is put into the final product". Plenty of times, the Final Product might keep the essence of a concept art; but changes overall.
2.) Most of the time: Official site artists, especially those who make creature - AREN'T ON EGGCAVE. So they aren't the ones looking through topics unless they go out of their way. They often don't know all the creatures off Eggcave, so if you reference the name of one - they are sitting there just: ❔
3.) Artists are given your image; and NOTHING ELSE. Please don't assume they see it all, they don't. they usually just see what Ian provides: a image png - which he downloaded from the link you gave.

IF YOU WANT TO SEE A BASIC RUNDOWN OF HOW SUGGESTION ARTWORK IS HANDLED PLEASE LOOK HERE:
https://sta.sh/06nj4i1bmwr


"Changing the design entirely (like in the case of Bunvun)" - The Bunvun, from a artistic standpoint; was not changed entirely. I can entirely get the annoyance behind namely the color (and I did love the detail of the heart tabby marking), but overall, I can tell it is the suggestion.
Egg changed due to needing to be 90x90 (most artists make a 'Egg' template for themselves and rework it)
Child stage: sitting in flowerbed ✔️ the artist likely didn't know what a shaibun was - disregarded
Teen stage: wings semi looked like they fade into existence, using artistic freedom and creativity, the artist likely thought it'd be cool for fairy wings! put flowers at feet instead of holding to keep flowerbed from disappearing
Adult stage: wanted to see the cat and not just flowers, put a flower bed for them to lay in. Kept fairy wings because of artistic interpretation. made wings cream orange to stand out from flowers, likely opted for a tan to go with for overall color. (I did personally like the brown more, but hey.)
The tabby marking likely completely slipped their mind as they got into the drawing fever - I myself am guilty of this. But unless it is *pointed out before submission* they won't know; and Ian is the only one who can make that request. But frankly: he likely doesn't notice, he gave concept of cute cat? he got final of cute cate with some changes. You unfortunately cannot demand Ian be your mouthpiece to the artists; and you are not involved in the process in any way aside from your image.

"even changing two stages, while keeping the description unchanged, thus creating inconsistencies (like in the case of Empercora)" I'll be honest; my brain auto-filled white belly in for the first stage. As a visual person I don't personally look at descriptions too much; and as it goes with art requests; the artists aren't even given the topic as far as I know, just the image. So artistic liberty was taken there and I totally see why they likely thought: 'oh, other 2 have white belly? this needs white belly". Again, most artists have a pre-set egg template unless they choose to draw it differently; for the sake of time, this artist spiced up the egg. (honestly? I adore Empercora egg, looks like a pretty fish egg with coral)

"It can't be that hard to just copy a suggestion and create it into a digital form." Its not. But they do need to fit this creature in their 90x90 (box) parameters. There's that age old saying many artists love to use: "If you don't like it; do it yourself"
So some poses are changed (see Lovour adult). Also. If you want it to be copied to a T there are 2 artists rotating: the one who did the 2024 CRW, and the artist who did Jan/Febs 4 Monthlies. the CRW artist (I'll call them "Soft" since the artstyle is softer) has repeatedly kept suggestion art they do very accurate save for minor changes. Sometimes; I am bummed by how similar it is, it feels like a rendered copy paste. However; if that's what you want; keep track of the artist rotations. (CRW is a WHOLE thing in of itself, so if one artist posts the monthlies; the other will cover CRW and the same monthly artist will repeat next time) of course, there are exceptions: a new artist might join! a artist might get sick and they skip.
However. I'll say it again: DO NOT MAKE A SUGGESTION UNLESS YOU ARE OK WITH YOUR SUGGESTION, BEING A SUGGESTION

If a creature suggestion has Sentimental Value to you, you might really want to consider how much you want it to be changed. If you're not OK with it; maybe reconsider. I've been thinking about posting a suggestion based on my late dog Prairie. But do to her literally being.... A DOG; I struggle to come up with a theme I can make her fit in uniquely without it just being: DOG.
When a Artist gets a request; they're given a theme. So if you're suggestion is just... a dog. they might take liberties to reference it; but make it fit that theme.
"I wrote multiple times in the forum thread that it was based on my real life cat." -- not many people know it; but again Artist's don't see your topic usually Artists are given the image attached to the email as a PNG.

"I just don't understand why whole designs have to be changed in order to suit their style (when it wasn't even their concept to begin with...?)" Its a concept. Its Eggcave's concept art. Concept art is not 'Final', the artist is the final. Unless Ian asks for a revision; that is the LAW. Ian isn't exactly the mouthpiece of you to the artist; nor do I think he has the time or want to use money to. Artist's often require a 'revision charge', which is where after the final art is made; additional changes cost $ its pretty common.
"It's very upsetting and disregards the time and effort that the original artists put into their suggestion" I feel you (*COUGH* polter *COUGH*) but its not your art once Ian chooses it for the month. When you put it up on the Creature Suggestions & Fanart forum; you're saying "Eggcave can handle this as they see fit". Quite frankly: it isn't of your opinion now, as much as that sucks.

"the easiest way to prevent this is letting us CHOOSE which eggcave artist carries out our suggestion" - That might be the case; but artists are sent a batch of requests on a rotating basis. March: soft artstyle artist, April: Hard artstyle artist, REPEAT. Artists are not booked as you see fit. They're booked as they're ready.



In the end; Alot of what I've been seeing said are people looking at it in this type of way:
"I made a OC, and my OC does not look the same in the commissioned Art!!!"
there's 3 problems with this:
- once your suggestion is picked: that creature/art/character? Isn't yours. Its EggCave's. It's now Eggcave's OC/design.
- you didn't commission art of said OC. EggCave did. And its Eggcaves OC/design now; so what Eggcave Likes? is the OC/design.
- you aren't part of the commission. Ian is the commissioner. When Ian clears it; the commissioner. Is happy.

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 1:47 PM

@prairie wanted to put a quick thing in here before I say anything else is that technically, as I discussed with Ian, they are still my ocs. I still own them and use them regularly as ocs :]

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 1:55 PM

@dragrawr Oh cool!
I guess for me if the way I've seen it handled; OCs are normally something someone owns, and thus can sell when they get tired. If you're drawing it as a character, dressing as them, doing commissions of them, art trades, ect - thats a fan character or cosplay.
If that makes sense.

Like I love to mess around and make a Wigget character.
but the Wiggit ain't mine no more.
I just like to have a little fella. So its a OC, but not in the way you can sell it.
OC (original character) might not be the best way to voice it?
A design would've been a better way to word it. I just now alot of people have/use OCs; but yes, you can make a Fan OC/species OC. But it isn't a design/character you have control over the say of in the end
Like - I can't use the Wiggit in a Game I make. Or in a animated show/story I'm making profit on. Unless I TOTALLY misunderstood something in the rules.

If that is clearer(?)

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 1:59 PM

@prairie yeah! I totally get you, but with that in mind I think the design should be honored to the fullest extent.

I know they are labeled as suggestions but (I think-) since we still *own* that design the favor of reading our forums fully and thoughtfully when choosing could be implemented. Relaying that to the artist would help them, too, since I do commission work I would know. When people give me specifics I am ON it, and the clear instructions I get from people I try to follow. Though I do see where you’re coming from as technically Ian is the commissioner. I think it is a simple fix, however, of sending over the forum to the artist as well.

I know we aren’t commissioning the artist ourselves but if our designs are used (for profit too) maybe a bit more consideration wouldn’t hurt.

And yes Wiggit is the guy ever omg

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 2:21 PM

@dragrawr
I definitely agree with the "more detail is good", as a artist who does commissions and stuff (heck even collabs here on EC) I can certainly say for a fact: more detail is better.
Just with the way suggestion stuff is given right now; no detail is given.

Just number of species sets, number of stages per species, total images for the order, images of concept art (creature suggestion artwork for them to ref).
That's it.
If more detail was wanted to be added (just so the artists don't have to read a NOVEL), having at MAXIMUM only like... 2 creature suggestions for month might be best.

There's been 4 Suggestions used in both January and February. As people who are paid a fixed rate per image (not by how complex a design is) its kinda..... alot to read through frankly.
So limiting Creature suggestions to be more sparse (thus more special) might be for the best.

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 2:35 PM

@prairie I think limiting is magbe a good idea, but I’m still happy the suggestions are being used more. The artists doesn’t have to be given the whole forum, just the small paragraph of notes if provided. Mine simply do not have notes but from this point forward will be asking solely for the other artist to convert mine into official art. And I don’t think that’s asking a lot. I also try to gauge when that artist will be used for a month but was unaware they were doing CRW, thus why I am going to edit my current suggestions to ask for May/July since I’m assuming that’s when the artist will be open next (also March but maybe it’s a little late for that)

Even if we did add more detail like you said the artist wouldn’t get it. You know? So it’s this back and forth with I feel like one simple solution: read the forum fully, and send notes to the artist.

I know that could be considered quite the drag but like you said the more detail the better : D

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 3:05 PM

@dragrawr
If you ask me. Asking for a SPECIFIC artist to draw your creature which is a suggestion Ian can implement any time..... is lowkey shadow commissioning; just with benefit to the site.
Suggestions in any way are kinda shadow commissioned (Ian being the inbetween), its just in the end: Eggcave now owns your concept. But the ticket there is: Ian chooses who makes it.
I mean by all means; go ahead and request. More power to you. I just find it a bit... much personally.
As you said, you don't think that's asking alot: your choice. But I don't think people should expect Ian's or the artist's schedule to align.


If you REALLY NEED the artist to see a note you have: as I said, add it to your image. You could add a whole side section or written/typed bullet points to that stuff.
Don't want the image with notes on your DA/art site? upload the suggestion image to sta.sh or imgur.
If you're deadset on a pose; try to make it box-able (just now some poses, while they fit in a box, might look tiny in a 90x90, so the artist chooses to fill the box better with a different pose. EX: holze suggestion art last stage)

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 3:38 PM

@prairie I totally get that, I know about the whole 90x90 but things can be done to keep the design. I think asking for a certain artist isn’t that much, especially considering eggcave makes profit off our designs and will be on the site forever. I think that’s pretty small of a request. It’s okay if you think it’s a bit much personally but people feel different about their designs as artists and feel differently when their design is implemented and that’s ok!

I personally believe my art speaks for itself, especially asking for the other artist that explicitly just copies my art which I personally prefer. Other’s opinion on their preference for my personal design doesn’t really influence what I still want/request in the end, and I think the suggestion creators should get a little bit more say in how their design is used, especially if specificed in the post. As I recall the Bunvun had notes in their image?

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 3:47 PM

@dragrawr
Yeah, bunvun had notes.
As in my OG post I think I did a brief breakdown of that.
I certainly would've preferred it to look more like the suggested art, but also: I see how we got here. I really do wish the Colors were kept a bit more to the suggestion art in my opinion.

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 4:03 PM

@prairie totally agree with the color thing. It’s just been two months in a row of people feeling disappointed and or dishesrtened over their suggestions being used and it’s quite saddening to see.

I’m still pushing my suggestion of a solution, and I think no matter what other people may think or believe each creator is going to feel differently but it tends toward more disappointment when this artist is used, not because of the art but the interpretation of it.

Even when there are notes they may not be considered. That’s the hardest part to fix is the ability of the artist to stick to a design with their individual capabilities that probably don’t find the design in the first place.

Just like how I am unable to draw more cutesy and fully robotic etc characters, and how I am perfect for drawing horror or more muscular characters. Each artist has a style and I feel like as the person indirectly getting art done of their design we should have a bit of a choice here :>

lexicon • 1 February 2024 at 4:03 PM

ya know this whole thing is making me rethink the very basis of "what is a creature suggestion?" LOL

to me, a suggestion is- hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was a green 3-headed mole creature? the EC artist can then take that and run with it and no one would be upset with the outcome provided it's generally green, has three-ish heads, and is a mole of some sort xD

what the very insanely talented eggcavers create, to me, is more than a mere suggestion. they are creations born from the pure love of eggcave and wanting to bring to life something that adds to the lore of EC! that's amazing. so much thought and effort is poured into designs from how many views it needs to evolve that can have significance in dates to color palettes and more! i think that's why this issue is so personal and has a lot of people justifiably upset when what they've created is changed or altered in a significant way. because of this, i completely agree with @prairie's earlier forum topic that artists should be properly compensated because they are not and should not be utilized as free labor and idea machines but credited and compensated for some incredibly cool concepts and designs❤️

i also agree with less "suggestions" being made (maybe 1-2 a month) and the ones that do get made should 1. be properly compensated and 2. get to provide some feedback to the EC artist rendering their design. you should be free to say hey i give whoever makes this free reign or my vision is x, y, z. i encourage providing more vague actual suggestions (re: green 3-headed mole) so that artists can have some idea of what to create and have the creative freedom to do more of their style! then when a "suggestion" gets picked it's more special and can be given more attention and respect to the person that shared some of their hard work and ideas to ultimately better the site 😊

hope my blabbing makes sense!❤️

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 4:55 PM

@dragrawr
Alright.
"It’s just been two months in a row of people feeling disappointed and or disheartened over their suggestions being used and it’s quite saddening to see" - It does stink that people aren't happy. However I'll take the low blow and say: you put the suggestion up for the site to own and use; and it did
I have definitely been on the receiving end of having a suggestion come out entirely different than the concept art I made. Am I salty about it a bit still? Haha, yeah. Am I going to expect to have it fixed, or have my future suggestions follow my wishes? NO. That isn't how it works, and I 'm pretty sure it'll continue to not work.

"It tends toward more disappointment when this artist is used, not because of the art but the interpretation of it" - Guess people better think twice then. It is Quite honestly? Not that artist's problem that your concept art's final was approved by Ian in a different way. It is not Ian's job to make sure that suggestor's have their suggestion followed 'just so'. Once a suggestion is submitted to the forums; you forfeit ownership of that design. What is done with that design is no longer your decision.

"Even when there are notes they may not be considered" Yep, this is a thing for both artists. Elsara for example; did not have a transparent tail. It certainly stayed on model to a T, but not all notes were regarded.

"Just like how I am unable to draw more cutesy and fully robotic etc characters, and how I am perfect for drawing horror or more muscular characters. Each artist has a style and I feel like as the person indirectly getting art done of their design we should have a bit of a choice here" - 'User suggestions, upon submission, become property of Egg Cave and can be used in whatever way the Site sees fit' upon submission, they aren't your design. You don't get a say; its how the TOS is. You can add notes and comments to you image submission; but beyond that, you aren't involved. It is not up to you as the initial designer to see who handles it or how the final looks before site implementation. You aren't paying the artist, Ian is.
"That’s the hardest part to fix is the ability of the artist to stick to a design with their individual capabilities that probably don’t [fit] the design in the first place." - if the artist Ian sends a request too feels unfit or uncomfortable to take the art request; the can deny it It is not up to You or anyone else to see that your suggestion is handed of to the 'most fit'. EggCave seems to have 2 artists rotating right now. Those are the choices. So thus there is nothing to fix"

I know in know way do you mean to sound rude about a official site artist's stylistic choices; but I'm going to state it as I see it. That comes off as 'pretty tone deaf' to me, and sounds exactly like that.
Coming from a artist to another.



I will always try to vouch for suggestion artist appreciation here. But I'm talking about your contribution for giving Eggcave an IDEA. I'm not vouching for our art to be followed and replicated. I am more so vouching for "hey, CSP creatures cost money; I'd like more than just 1 copy". At the way things stand; I'm thinking of suggesting Creatures suggestions to only be CAVE monthlies and maybe give 500cc/600cc that suggesters can use towards freezes or something else). Because to me? The want for CONTROL over the art requests???? Is insane. One of the things I believe is most important as a frequent suggester on Eggcave is to 'stay humble'; like understanding things are out of your hands honestly on what happens to your idea.

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 5:16 PM

@prairie
“ NO. That isn't how it works, and I 'm pretty sure it'll continue to not work.” change does not happen without action, that’s why this topic is here. If you go into thinking ‘nothing will change’ … it won’t.

Also, the design is still owned by me even if I submit it to eggcave. I don’t expect Ian or the artist to follow it directly, especially when the art starts off maybe traditionally etc. I had a whole conservation with Ian about how it is still my design ^^’ I don’t know how else to get that across to you I suppose

I am well aware of what artists can do, including denying a request.

Ah, I’m sorry you think it’s tone deaf. I said that I quite like this artist, but obviously the differences in style can be liked/disliked/or be neutral on. You’re allowed to think I’m tone deaf, but I truly do appreciate everything eggcave does. I’m mainly just voicing my own opinion and slapping commission facts over that probably won’t influence the creator’s feelings of the interpretation : ]

Yes, I hope you’re understanding that I am staying humble, just wanting to explain why people that suggest could be feeling this way [which quite frankly they’re so valid to]. Staying humble is supporting each other, being respectful, and communicating with the community with an open heart which includes possibly being open minded to people that think creators should have a little bit of a say! : D

I do agree with the compensation ^^/

kataclysm • 1 February 2024 at 5:25 PM

This sounds to me like a quick solve to the matter of artists going off of a very brief ... Brief, would be for them to be given the entire listing to read and reference? @prairie , based on your experience, is there a valid reason that Ian elects not to share the description and info written by users?? Especially if it is blatantly sentimental or specific, have there ever been exceptions (if you know/are interested/able to share) where more info may have been attached?

But I suppose an even better fix would be... As usual, more transparency here. How many of us knew how little of the info goes to the artists? So... How can we be expected to know that this sentimental value, these EC references, these hyperspecific details... Mean (probably) nothing to the artist? Like, the policies and disclaimers listed aren't updated/in need of review, and obviously, not informative enough for users to know the true breadth of how the process goes. How many suggesters could have saved themselves time, creative effort, and potential heartache if they had been fully informed from the beginning of the process?

Streamlining the standard of site suggestions into 'a basic piece of art with 3-5 buzzwords' instead of the hugely expressive, thought-out suggestions we currently have seems like the way to go forward for the sake of suggesters and the artists, too.

This all feels like another strike against EC's outdated information and substandard transparency for its members, resulting in controversies, discussions, and upset members, and could have potentially have been avoided by up to date information and clear, transparent details on how things actually work.

lexicon • 1 February 2024 at 5:39 PM

@kataclysm

very well put!! 👏🏽 i think this is what i meant by suggestions aren't really suggestions anymore. people want to and have been more involved in the creative process but now that has no oversight/governance and we need some clearer guidelines to prevent further heartache /: seems like a doable fix!

heatherm19 • 1 February 2024 at 5:41 PM

@lexicon "what the very insanely talented eggcavers create, to me, is more than a mere suggestion. they are creations born from the pure love of eggcave and wanting to bring to life something that adds to the lore of EC! "

I think this is what it comes down to in my eyes. I don't really want to get into it all and I mostly skimmed the longer posts here, but the thing is, regardless of technically *wording* used, most creatures suggested by users here are *not* just vague random 'wouldn't that be cool' suggestions. From what I've seen, users often suggest concepts that are important to them for one reason or another, and if they themselves draw the 'concept art' it often has a lot of meaning. They specifically choose certain colors, certain features, for *reasons*. Now obviously the paid Eggcave artists can and should put their own flair into it and change posing/etc if needed... But when the resulting art looks nothing at all like the concept art, or changes specific things that were specifically pointed out as important, it does tend to feel a bit disrespectful.

THAT SAID. Eggcave has a much different setup in this area then the only other adoptable site I've been so familiar with. And honestly, in this one area, I feel like Eggcave could benefit from doing things a little more like other sites. Before here, I'd never heard of any similar site that encourages and *uses* user suggestions but completely cuts out the user from the entire process. Specifically, imo a lot of the frustration and disappointment could be avoided with just a little communication from Eggcave to the concept creators. Even just a 'hey, heads up, we needed to change this and that about your design'. Or even an *option* to be told 'we are changing this and that' and then *choose* to no longer be associated/credited because it no longer resembles what was important to you about the suggestion.

edit: (Please excuse any typos, keyboard dying...)

shrimp • 1 February 2024 at 5:46 PM

@kataclysm @lexicon @heatherm19

Ive stayed a bit quiet so far since this moved from the Blog, but I just wanted to say what all of you have said here is a pretty perfect replica of my thoughts.

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 5:58 PM

@kataclysm
No, no reason in particular. Ian could definitely choose to add more detail if he sees fit. He just might not see fit.
I know that sounds like a bummer; but again; as per TOS rules (which every artist should be aware of) "User suggestions, upon submission, become property of Egg Cave and can be used in whatever way the Site sees fit." - literally 2nd to last part of TOS.
It might be blatantly sentimental (and this will sound harsh of me), but it is not up to the Artist nor Ian to carry that out to full detail. If it's very sentimental; I'd suggest attaching the sentiment to the overall symbolism of the suggestion. The design might be changed.
I have personally only done Item work based off of suggestions. I've made creature art, but they were all of my own design. I do not personally know any of the official creature artists here on eggcave; nor do I *think* they have accounts. When I have received item requests where suggestions have been used; I've been given images attached directly to the message or compiled in a ZIP file. I cannot nor WILL disclose all details because that is not OK professionally. Everything I have said is pretty standard across the board for any image-based site you get commissioned by as an artist.

Honestly; it is not Ian's issue as to if people know the process of getting artwork done. That is just the business of it. I just share small tips and tricks I've found useful as a SUGGESTER and small insights to how any freelance artwork goes. Since I am a artist and animator who does this stuff often as a living; I have alot to say about it.
This was never much of an issue until people decided they want to get a bit more particular about the art their suggestions were given. I get that some of the art is painstakingly beautiful in the draft (suggestion art), but you are ultimately not the one drawing it for Eggcave's keeps; not unless you are an artist for Eggcave; in which you match their theme or other people's suggestions, not what you want the theme to be. Believe me; I understand being attached to a design you put fourth (see the polter). But it is not up to us as users - not official artists or staff - to say 'this is how it must be'.
"How many suggesters could have saved themselves time, creative effort, and potential heartache if they had been fully informed from the beginning of the process" - I mean. I dunno where the idea that everything would be 'exact' came from; I do know one of the artists in rotation is very diligent about replicating suggestions to a T, but I don't really recall suggestions being such a serious thing. It was more so a place for kids and adults who enjoy the sight to have a shot at getting one of their creations into the site they love. Suggestions are a work of love: but more so to the site. (or that's how I always thought of it)






Overall; I do get the want and expectation for your suggestions to be used and kept similar to a degree. I will not lie that sometimes I am a bit bummed when one strays too far.
But as it is with most things; artists change, artists rotate, and the same artist cannot draw all your suggestions. Sometimes there's points in life where stuff changes and doesn't fit the mold.

Some people are saying "suggestions aren't suggestions anymore" - artists aren't the same anymore either.
Ian might choose to provide more notes/feedback to this particular artist going forward with suggestions, but that's honestly up to him. Its his site, and the descriptions are his property upon submission.
My view of suggestions (as a artist) was always 'out of love of the site' now it more so feels that suggesters are doing it 'out of love of the design', nothing inherently wrong about that, I know I can't help but love the designs I plan out; but I feel like getting too attached to designs from the get go makes it far easier to be disappointed.
Overall the creature you suggest is for the ENTIRE site; not just you.

mindwhiper • 1 February 2024 at 6:01 PM

...
...
...
...maybe we all should ask Ian to to clarify what the suggestions is, to get another unclear answer, like everything on this site, and just be more careful about the fact that users are also authors like an artists?...

UPD:

I'm starting to think that lately people have started to forget that it's the user who fills the site with content, not the turnover. if you dig deeper into the origins of the problem, it turns out that the authors of the creatures do not receive anything (except a copy for free on the day of release), while the site itself makes a profit from each purchase of creatures throughout the entire time + reissue. which, let me remind you, is possible thanks to the work of not only artists, but also the creators of these creatures.

so why does it turn out that other people's ideas will be used for a very long time, will not belong to them at the same time, will be redone in accordance with an outside opinion and will not be subsequently paid for by part of the profit? Okay, eternal glory, the sign "author", and so on. but doesn't anyone think that this is going too far?

and words like "there's something wrong with the approach of the site, you misunderstand the term of suggestions" just the best excuse in the world, it's very convenient when you just can't say "I can't do anything about it" or "yes, it feels wrong."

sorry for the emotion. I am really very offended for the authors and the way the site stifles their enthusiasm over and over again.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 6:46 PM

@ida92 @senkou

Hey everybody!

Thanks for your thoughts here. I understand that over the last couple of months, a number of creators have been upset that their creature suggestions haven't been copied exactly as envisioned or changed by our artists. In the case of the Bunvun, it's sentimental because it's a reminder of real life. You pour your creativity into something and then it turns out different than expected. I understand that frustration, and I'm sorry about that.

Here's how the creature suggestions to "real Egg Cave creature" pipeline works:

1. A user (like you all) posts a link to concept art in the forums.

2. The topic generates a combination of attention, love, and positive responses. We choose the creature for an upcoming release.

3. Egg Cave works 60-90 days ahead for content planning with its artists. This means we're thinking about Valentine's Day creatures around Christmas.

4. The concept art image is copied down and saved (the image from ibb.co, etc). This image file is sent in a ZIP file attachment to the artist chosen for that month's commission. We ask them to stay as true as possible to the concept but always allow for creativity liberties since they are the artist.

Put simply, I think that @prairie has hit the nail on the head in her earliest post here. The concept art that's submitted at Egg Cave is exactly that: concept art. It's an idea that you're sending our way and giving Egg Cave an opportunity to bring an idea to life. This is a cool process to see your idea brought to life, and then enjoyed by players on Egg Cave in the form of a real, collectible creature.

@prairie has also brought up other good points: not all of our artists are regular Egg Cave players (they're not reading your notes, only your image is sent), concept art is sometimes not entirely in the theme we want for the month (color palette change for a random theme month), and the relatively small 90x90 pixel canvas that's standard at Egg Cave often requires an entire reconfiguration of a body, pose, positioning, or alignment (particularly concept art that's wide or rectangular—it has to be squished and squared to fit). These are just some examples.

I'm afraid that the only thing I can offer in this topic is... please do not submit creature suggestions to Egg Cave if you have an expectation that your concept be copied and implemented exactly. We'll work our hardest to implement your concept as intended to honor your creativity—we always have been the whole time, nothing has recently changed—but it's not something we've promised or can promise in the long term.

I'm happy to hear you out and read your comments here. Let me know.

redflipflap • 1 February 2024 at 7:03 PM

Nah there’s been far too many negative responses about this whole thing. If you’re not happy with the game and the way that it functions/offers a platform for its users to be apart of the creature creating process, then you don’t have to participate or even continue to be on here.

Because honestly at the end of the day, this is a game. A game that a lot of folks play to relax.

shrimp • 1 February 2024 at 7:03 PM

With all due respect, I feel like it wouldn't take much, if any, effort to provide the chosen artist with the notes the creator of the submission has provided. Only providing them with the images and nothing else is an easily fixable error, as the text could simply be copied from the suggestion post and sent as a PDF inside of the ZIP file alongside the photo. This would provide more accuracy, and very easily fix some of the issues mentioned both on this thread and on the blog post.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 7:07 PM

@foreigners

Fair point. I will agree to send user-submitted text notes (instead of just the image) to the artist when a user suggestion is accepted and used. This could reduce the number of changes that an artist might make.

However, there is the larger issue that still stands and kind of supersedes this: the artist will still be given creative liberty to make changes to your design and may still need to make changes to fit the theme, color palette of the random theme month, size, canvas, etc as previously stated.

I'll send along the creator's notes for your concepts in the future, but please do not read this as an 100% guarantee that there will be no changes made to your concept.

mindwhiper • 1 February 2024 at 7:10 PM

@redflipflap "If you don't like it, don't look, don't play, don't read" - this is the *simplest* thing you can do. I'm wondering why every time you start asking questions about what's going on or start criticizing something a little bit, this hottake immediately comes out? Oh yes, this is just a game but this is just a game including living ppl who create something FOR just a game, and after all, they're upset, they have some words, so just please let them speak.