A discussion about the February creature suggestions

shrimp • 1 February 2024 at 7:10 PM

@Ian

Thank you for being receptive to sending notes as well! I know that a design being used as a guide for a creature is never a guarantee that it'll be a 100% copy (and I don't mind that one bit, I like to see the 'eggcave' spin on things!) but I think that this will definitely help to keep the designs at least a bit more true to their intentions despite some changes.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 7:11 PM

@foreigners

You're welcome! I appreciate your piece of constructive, positive feedback. It's a simple step that we can take to get closer to what our players intended. 😊 I agree.

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 7:14 PM

@Ian I am elated you will be sending notes now, that is very helpful. I think some other good points were brought up by various people in this topic as well like prairie's compensation thread and others. Thank you for reading this thread. I think there is still more work to be done, if I am honest, but i am unsure if I can quite word them just yet.

mami • 1 February 2024 at 7:26 PM

To anyone complaining about their suggested concept art not getting made into a perfect carbon copy by an artist who might not even know what EggCave is, all the while getting their idea made into something real on a pretty big site for free which is a honor you don't even have a chance for on most other pet sites:

Take a step back, and try to realize the one thing upsetting you is in your own hands. Don't suggest creatures you can't stand to see any different if picked. A pet site is not the place to bring personal projects to life if you insist on treating them as yours even once they no longer are.

mindwhiper • 1 February 2024 at 7:33 PM

@mami I don't even want to start this argument or challenge this point of view in any way, because yes, it makes sense - but why, why is the self-realization of the creators of creatures treated somewhat carelessly? this is a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer it.

jlya • 1 February 2024 at 7:37 PM

I am neutral in this topic but I just wanted to say thank you yet again to @ian for hearing your players and finding compromises to help please all parties. Site staff could so easily just "turn off" from all the negativity. You can't make everyone happy but I so appreciate the constant efforts to make changes that help players enjoy the game.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 7:54 PM

@mindwhiper

In my mind, releasing a not-perfect carbon copy is not the equivalent of being "careless." I don't want to head in this direction, either, as this then insults the artist bringing people's vision to life. In any case, I've agreed that we can do better in sending creators' notes directly to the artists when chosen. We'll do that.

Thanks to all of you reading, lurking, and posting the positive vibes here. I agree it's easy to turn negative and just want to say that... I see you! 🙏🏼

bunnyshadow • 1 February 2024 at 7:57 PM

@daisycat Imagine if someone hated on your original creature suggestion as much as you're hating on the artist who drew the Chipmint [Totally undeserved by the way]. The person who was commissioned to draw that creature just caught a bunch of strays for no reason because you're upset at something else entirely.

mindwhiper • 1 February 2024 at 8:00 PM

@Ian it's really, really good to hear that something has changed for the better. I'm not saying that a perfect copy is better than a flight of fantasy, I'm pointing out that the self-realization of the authors of creatures through the site is also very important. This is creativity, the process of creation, and when people see something completely different from what they created, it leads to frustration.

After all there is nothing terrible about sending notes to artists? In the end understanding the specifics of something is just the key to adoration.

heatherm19 • 1 February 2024 at 8:00 PM

@Ian Honestly, thank you so much for responding here and being willing to explain things and hear people out.

If you are open to sending the user notes along with the image (which is an awesome change that definitely seems like it could help), would you be at all open to notifying the creator if major changes are made to their concept-art? Or even just allowing the creator to see the finished creature before release? I feel like a part of the surprise/frustration here is because it's just a complete surprise what the creature will actually look like on release. A user is told that their suggestion has been chosen for release, of course they get excited about seeing their ideas implemented on a site they love, and then suddenly it's released and so completely different then how they imagine it, of course that must be a bit of a shock an upset.

daisycat • 1 February 2024 at 8:08 PM

@bunnyshadow
I've also complimented this artist's work, but I guess that went unnoticed (in the blog post and for previous creatures). And I can assure you that there are plenty people that don't like my artwork, they just may not say anything. Which is fine if they don't like it, not everyone is going to like what someone does. I'm aware of that.

That person isn't catching anything for no reason -- I'm sure you noticed over the past few months that many various users are not interested in this person's art style. So why are they still being paid to work for Egg Cave? Any other time I've talked about it, I give a disclaimer and say they can clearly draw, that I do in fact like their art style (the other is just my preference), and so on. But just because I only said something negative in my last post, it gets pointed out? I had been kind to them in any other post or comment I've made. I'm sure there are people on here who can vouch for me who have seen remarks I've made over the past couple months. They are always both sides. But the last post, yes, only negative, because I do not like the final stage and that's how I feel (and I like to express how I feel lol).

redflipflap • 1 February 2024 at 8:13 PM

@mindwhiper I’d have no issue if it was done respectfully but a lot of folks are being suuuuper rude to the artists that design the creatures and the Eggcave Team point blank. I’m all about constructive criticism and feedback but I think that line was crossed a hot minute ago

bunnyshadow • 1 February 2024 at 8:26 PM

@daisycat

Yeah maybe because the people who dislike your art live by the saying “If you don’t have something nice to say don’t say it at all.” especially if it’s something that someone poured their time & effort into.

FYI — Saying one nice thing doesn’t mean you can say one mean thing right after. Stuff like this isn’t a math equation that cross cancels.

endrolled • 1 February 2024 at 8:26 PM

i don't think i have much of anything to contribute here for the time being, but i just wanted to say i'm really glad this is a discussion that is being had. i get the feeling that some of this had been a building issue for a long time now, and though i may have only been a member of the site for under a year, it's definitely been getting to me a little.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 8:50 PM

@heatherm19

Notifying the original creator of major changes is sometimes not possible because our artists’ deadlines are only days before the monthly release (yes, even though we are working 60-90 days out). I’m not sure what notifying creators on the 29th or 30th would do with regards to something they’ll see on the 1st. Are you looking to process individually?

Second, what constitutes a “major departure” from the original design? What might look different to you as a creator may not look that different to me. In some of the changes for February with the concept versus final design, I get it, but in other cases it just doesn’t seem that different to me.

My thought is that if you’re that shocked about it turning out differently, this is a signal to me that you want more control over the final design. And if you want that, submitting your idea as concept art might not be for you.

And now to all, a reminder here to keep things civil and respectful. If the conversation continues to get heated, this topic will be closed and the conversation will become limited to the CREATORS and their individual wishes and EGG CAVE STAFF only.

okami • 1 February 2024 at 8:53 PM

I am very glad that moving forward, artists will now be provided the user text along with concept art. I was surprised to hear that those text notes/descriptions weren’t being provided prior, it explains several image to description consistencies I’ve noticed, but I think it will be a massively positive change. :]

I will say that I think it is completely okay for someone to not like someone’s art, so I do not think it is at all acceptable to be coming @daisycat like that. She didn’t say that the artist couldn’t draw at all, she has pointed out things that she likes about their art style, but is also allowed to have the valid opinion of not thinking that specific art style complements the sites creatures. Artists all have their strengths and weaknesses, they all have their styles that they are skilled in and may not be great at, so just because their style doesn’t fit XYZ project doesn’t mean their art skills are lacking. Users should be allowed to critique art styles for creatures, nobody is saying that the artist lacks talent, they are just expressing the opinion that several suggestions that have been drawn by them have not seemed in their opinion fitting for the site style. And yes, @bunnyshadow , this isn’t a math equation, it’s art. You are allowed to like and dislike aspects of someone's artwork or art style, this isn’t a numbers thing.

And @prairie, please try to be kind. You have a very rude tone to your text, you are correct in that observation. Please try to think about how you’re coming across before typing out words. Please think to the extent that you're trying to tell others to think. @Daisycat is allowed to dislike how her creature suggestion was drawn. She is allowed to dislike artwork on the site. This isn’t even about money, or how replicated the creature was, this is about an opinion that someone has about an art style that they are allowed to dislike. She didn’t say “wow, this artist has zero talent.” No, she pointed out things she did not like, is allowed to have those opinions, and just because her opinions differ from yours, she should not be attacked for it. Are you saying that artists can never receive critique? Are you saying that feedback can only ever be positive? Are you saying that any artwork ever posted on this site or anywhere period cannot be disliked? That isn’t how things work, everyone has different opinions and is allowed to express those opinions, and coming after one individual for expressing their opinion is bullying, plain and simple. Again, Daisy never said this artist can’t draw, she gave some examples of artwork aspects she does not personally like, and voiced the valid personal opinion that the art style might not complement certain creatures. She pointed out that the Chipmint has some off-putting features in the final drawing. That isn’t rude, that is a critique. So please think and don’t equate that to slapping them?

pipkitten • 1 February 2024 at 9:15 PM

As the suggester of several creatures (common, LE, and CSP), I'm just going to toss in my two cents here.

I've always known that my art is simply a concept drawing, not what the end product is going to look like.
It's *not* something I would EVER expect a hired artist for the site to replicate 1:1, because it's CONCEPT ART. Handing a suggestion to the site is like going "Here's the basic gist of this creature, have at it" for the artist that gets assigned.

If you want custom art, commission an artist yourself. Don't expect a site artist to make your suggestion to exactly your specs, because as soon as you post it for suggestion, it is no longer yours.

Ian • 1 February 2024 at 9:30 PM

@pipkitten pretty much this. And also, it’s always worked this way at Egg Cave. Nothing’s changed.

It’s concept art. If you need it to be yours, please keep it for you, your site, and your blog only. We are happy to respect that.

twinkle • 1 February 2024 at 9:33 PM

From a consumer standpoint, I think it’s risky to give the artist full liberty to modify the concept art vs. telling them to retain certain features/elements that the suggestor had requested. I had supported several creature suggestions in the forums that had been made official but tbh I did not buy some of them because the reasons why I (and others) supported them in the first place were heavily modified to a point that I wouldn’t have supported them in the first place if it were like that, but I’m sure others were okay with the changes. It’s all a matter of preference. I think if Eggcave decides to take anyone’s suggestion, I think it’s fair and wouldn’t hurt to respect the suggestion design too (at the very least the few details they want retained) because I know a lot of the users here are artists as well and the effort they put into the design and lore should not be undermined. I appreciate Ian for reaching out and listening to suggestions. I can tell that everyone here loves Eggcave and are speaking their mind so the site can improve in the way they see it can go. ❤️

raccoon • 1 February 2024 at 9:39 PM

Posting only to say THANK YOU to all members of the Egg Cave Team and all the artists who create for this site. Without you, we wouldn't have this game that is near and dear to my heart. Your work is amazing and appreciated by not just myself but many other people.

The disrespect I see directed towards you guys is disgusting and some people REALLY need to take a step back and remember that these are actual people on the other side of the screen.

You're allowed to dislike something but it's not okay to insult people or their work.

senkou • 1 February 2024 at 9:53 PM

@ian
Thank you so much for seeing and addressing this!! I'm glad despite all the drama that we have been able to take a much-needed step forward. I've learned from this that the BTS process of suggestions on eggcave does not align at all to what i thought/hoped for and is unlikely to change, which i also understand. It is a system that has worked/stayed the same for a long time, so i understand it would be difficult and unnecessary to change everything.

However i think what seems to be the root cause of this distress is the user misunderstanding of the process, which can be helped. A lot of us, like myself, had a misconception (for whatever reason) that the final would look more like our original art, which is why we are upset to see the outcome being any different. Most of us, although are artists, do not do commission based art and could not be expected to understand the process of it before this point. In my case, i was unaware of the commission process and assumed that, since my previous 2 suggestions only had minor changes, that this one would be no different. I thought that ian would have read about the sentimental value in the topic i created and would have chosen the same artist who was fit to carry out this sensitive theme in the closest possible way. My catsmos concept art (https://imgur.com/gallery/ENC1r2R) was also NOT coloured, and details of the colour (dark violet, deep magenta and plum) were detailed ONLY in my notes in the forum topic. The catsmos creature was released with the colour scheme I proposed, which put me under the impression that the artist DID read our notes. For all the people trying to indirectly slander me, a combination of all these misconceptions is why i saw it fit to create a sentimental creature that i expected to also closely resemble my art, in alignment with the catsmos and elsara. All this just goes to show that there is a lot of foggy territory that could be communicated better with people who wish to suggest in the future.

Ian, I'm grateful that you took the time to come here and clear everything up in your first post on this topic, but in light of this, i think it would be beneficial to announce this somewhere officially if possible. Perhaps under the 'Disclaimers and Policies' section of the Fan Art & Creature Suggestions Forum section? Something detailing the rough process of how our suggestion would get turned over to the artist and not being able to guarantee total similarity in the final. This would benefit future suggestors, and deter people like myself who had hoped for our suggestions to look more similar than is possible. (Maybe even explicitly discouraging creatures of the bunvun's sentimental nature in the future, i don't care, just want to prevent other users from going through what i've gone through these past few days.) Again, really appreciate your hard work and dedication to revise the process into something as suggestor AND artist-friendly as possible. 😊

dragrawr • 1 February 2024 at 10:29 PM

I am very happy of people sharing their opinions and people are entitled to do so, as long as people stay respectful towards each other. Its obviously a tense situation, and I relatively think this forum needs to be sharing thoughts without people jumping on others for something they believe. There are facts, and there are opinions. In this case, creators should be able to voice their opinions without backlash from the community they try to provide for

As a creator myself I can understand the frustration here. I am hoping that things improve as we go on, and that some people, respectfully, lose their attitude when it comes to this since we are all a part of the site.

mastergemma • 1 February 2024 at 11:02 PM

A small reminder to not backseat moderate, please just use the report button and don't respond.

Some of what I have read today is reminiscent of exactly why my favourite artist left Egg Cave as they were also a user here and saw horrendous responses about their most beautiful art in real time.

The only thing I am asking now is to self reflect at your messages here, on the blog post, in PMs or elsewhere and think, is this actually okay?

I am very disappointed in the actions of many today.

ida92 • 2 February 2024 at 2:06 AM

I understand some of you are very upset, but please let's keep this topic respectful. It's what has been asked for the in the initial post. I know keeping calm can be difficult, especially when you're sensitive and agitated by something, but please remember that we're trying to discuss and find solutions. Arguing, being impolite and getting offended never leads to a good, constructive consesus. And that's what we want, right?

@Ian thank you for considering sending the artists our notes. I like the Empercora's egg and first stage, the point I was making is just that they don't match the description anymore. And I'm aware that some artists may not play this game, so writing things like "this creature is similar to creature X" may not give them any context. But stating that the belly starts bleeching in the teen stage is pretty straight-forward. I also undesrtand that the artists may have to stretch or change the pose to fit in the 90x90 canvas. That's understandable. As long as I'm ok with the artist doing "touch-ups" to user suggestions or adding some cosmetics, I feel like making major changes just isn't fair. They are reacreating someone elses suggestion. What we get may no longer be the creature everyone voted for. If the description clearly states that "this bunny creature hatches with short ears that grow to an impressive size as it ages", and the community vote for this concept, but receive a bunny with super long ears from birth, it's no longer the concept they voted for. I feel like it's not only the suggestor that can get a bit upset, but also users that voted for the creature because they liked it for the specific detailes. Which it no longer has. I know it can also be frustrating for the artist to always have to follow instructions, but maybe limiting the user suggested creatures to 2 per month could be a solution. That way artists also get to design their own creatures, relying only on their creativity.

isis • 2 February 2024 at 2:20 AM

Just want to throw it out here that I am very grateful to the EggCave staff and artists for all their hard work! I remember my reaction to my creature Capicoco was surprise, not in a bad way, but like: "Huh, they kept the art this close to mine? I thought eggcave was gonna change more about it!" So kind of the opposite of the problem here 😆 What I mean to say by that is, I always am really excited to see the EC artists' spin on the idea, rather than a 1 on 1 copy. But I understand that that's different for everyone, especially if it's a suggestion so personal. For what it's worth, I love both artists' styles, and I plan to keep suggesting in the future. It's so nice that we have the opportunity to do that in the first place! Finally, thank you Ian for deciding to send the artist notes along with the commissions too. As someone who has been commissioned before, I always say, the more details I get, the easier it is for me!

cryogenics • 2 February 2024 at 2:27 AM

i think a lot of people are missing a very big point about submitting creature concepts and expecting an artist to stick to their suggestions.

1. if you PAID that artist for the commission yourself, you can have a say on the commission yourself and continue to claim the work as your own.

2. as you are only suggesting our ideas here, and not contributing to the financing of the artists fees, you have no rights to the IP materials anymore, or have scruples about any changes made to the art.

3. you are rewarded for your contributions/suggestions by being awarded the creature with the creator title.

@prairie hit the nail squarely on the head earlier.

everyone just needs to take a chill pill, and be happy that your suggestion was selected.

or have you all become so haughty because you have been selected many times before?

ida92 • 2 February 2024 at 2:54 AM

@cryogenics I'm always happy when my suggestion gets created, even if it does get changes. I never complained about the Loveer having flowers added to it or having it's final stage changed. That was never included in the creature's description. All I'm trying to point out is that when the original suggestor provides detailes about the creture's looks, it would be fair for the commision artist to follow those detailes, if possible. I know it may not always be for reasosns stated earlier (like having to fit on a 90x90 canvas).

shirothekittehlover • 2 February 2024 at 3:20 AM

I'm honestly very, very grateful to Ian and the staff for giving us the chance to contribute to this game, and thus I'm not hating on them at all, but honestly, a lot of these could've been avoided if Ian would just read the topic for a bit first and give notes from both the description and the design notes to the artist in the first place... The Empercora situation reminds me of when the Psychiro (one of my very first creature collabs) first released, the egg description (which has been changed since) said that there's eye patterns on it while there's none on the officialized art..
There's also the Plesiloch, stated to have fins on the egg yet none on the official art. There could be several others too, but I probably forgot which ones are they.

Also, @Ian thanks for listening to us by giving design notes to the artist in future creature approvals, but is the entire situation right now gonna be resolved sometime soon?

cryogenics • 2 February 2024 at 3:37 AM

i think this matter can not be resolved in a manner you would want. the art is not going to be changed.

@Ian has said going forward the creator's notes will be provided to the artists.

honestly dont know what further you want from this discussion.

froot • 2 February 2024 at 3:55 AM

i want to preface this with a huge heartfelt thank-you to all of the eggcave team and ian for actually being open to user feedback. that said, i'll gently nudge in my two cents.

though i am largely neutral, i can empathise with both sides of the discussion.

it's clear that the main issue most suggesters have is the final creature not staying true to the original essence that the suggester intended for the creature to have.

from a logistical perspective, it is certainly much simpler and logically sensible to allow the site artists to take creative liberty. it would also be illogical and nonsensical to allow any suggester to make demands as to what the artists should and should not draw.

however, like many have pointed out, egg cave is something players are passionate about. this is what motivates them to, in their own time, take something that means a lot to them and have it immortalised meaningfully in the game.

logically and entirely objectively, egg cave does not owe suggesters any compensation. players suggest creatures of their own free volition. however, i think there exists some degree of moral obligation to remain respectful of players' ideas and concepts, given that these ideas are volunteered, but enables profit for the site, as well as the fact that players do not receive anything beyond simple compensation within the game; i believe that the issue is that suggesters are (reasonably) upset and frustrated over their designs not being reflected as intended in the final work.

to put things bluntly, it would simply be a poor move to take someone's design, which they've provided for free, change it while not staying true to the original design the way they intended it to be, and profit off of it. though not technically wrong, as egg cave does not owe players anything on a solely logical / objective basis, it's understandable that players would feel hurt or frustrated over this.

BUT, this is NOT a valid reason for anyone who feels they have the right to demand that artists incorporate anything they wish. artists should be allowed to have their own take on the creature, given that the concept provided is simply a suggestion.

though i fully agree that artists should be allowed creative freedom, i also believe that key features of the suggestion should not be modified to too great an extent, which may have been the case in this month's suggestions. many previous suggestions-turned-creatures are great examples of successful adaptations. though they clearly display an "egg cave spin" and are not exact replicas of the design, they capture the essence of the creature in a way that stays respectful of the original intention.

i think that what underlies this issue is miscommunication. as previously suggested, notes would be an effective solution. though unrealistic to expect artists to read long lengths of text about the background, lore and references of the suggestion, i think a feasible method of going about this would be to have a standardised note. for instance, a general physical description and one unique / symbolic aspect of the creature. limiting the word / character count on this note would also ensure enough leeway for the artist as well as clearer communication.

however, egg cave is, after all, a game. it's really disappointing to see the many polarised responses not just in this forum but in the recent post. many are being very critical of others' opinions, which i believe each individual is entitled to. though reflected in the site's ToS that the copyright of a concept lands in egg cave's hands upon submission of such a suggestion, given that the site is supported by a player base, it is only reasonable to at least listen to what players have to say, which the egg cave team is doing an AMAZING job of. it's unreasonable and frankly upsetting to see some people justifying their lack of empathy with the argument that the rules are as written and that all must abide by the rigidity of these rules. what makes egg cave the beautiful game it is are the players. sure, the players do not directly pay the artists, but they support the game and make it what it is. literally, this game would not run, would not exist, if it weren't for the players. i feel it is reasonable to at least respect or heed players' wishes. if there is an aspect of the game that many feel they could point out to improve it, they should be free to make a suggestion and express their opinion without being wrongly criticised by others for being contemptuous. rules can be changed, they do not define black and white - this can only happen with a system of honest feedback and open communication, and i think egg cave does this brilliantly.

props again to the egg cave team + ian + artists. you're all doing a wonderful job. ❤️

tldr:
suggesters are frustrated about final creature not reflecting intended aspects of suggestion. artists should be allowed creative freedom. a compromise is suggested in the form of a note with limited word/character count that allows suggester to highlight overall appearance + one unique aspect, while allowing enough flexibility for artists to take their own creative liberties + egg cave spin.