Excuse me Dearly

disneyland • 1 September 2013 at 11:02 PM

I just think this months creatures are eh~

There were a couple good September CC critter suggestions that would have been way more cool ^^


I'm still excited for the October creatures though.

I love Halloween, I hope it's not disappointing ^^

ladynymeria • 1 September 2013 at 11:52 PM

@bubblez
1: When I said fairly new I meant relatively new. Compared to other pet sites and businesses that have been around for a decade or so and have a load of steady (and paid) staff members, this site is relatively new and, imo, still trying to find it's groove.
2: "Eggcave is just getting worse and worse" somehow isn't rude to you?
3: Your view on opinions is twisted, but whatever. I just gave my opinion and it seemed as though you didn't like it, though I plainly stated that I just wanted you all to consider others' feelings for a moment, not stop or silence or guilt you. If you get defensive over being asked to consider other people's feelings, then I have no time for you.

As I said before, I understand this topic and would also like to see some more pretty creatures. But as another person pointed out, giving actual constructive criticism would help everyone a lot more. I'm done, bye.

karamel • 2 September 2013 at 4:19 AM

@bubblez Did you read what ladynymeria said? Opinions can still hurt. I do see both sides of the argument - I'm an annoyingly natural devil's advocate that just goes round in circles when debating about moral dilemmas xD - and I completely see where you're coming from.

I just think that you guys could be a little more kind to the artist(s), whoever they are - I couldn't care less if it was Qes, Pirran, someone totally new or even someone who's been on here for a while. Your current opinions are not going to improve the art at all.

If you haven't already, it would be nice for you guys to also see the other side of the argument and read this (if you haven't already) because IMO enough drama came from the blog.

"You are ALL welcome to your opinion! However if you want change, if you want something new, if you dislike a certain style, you need to voice that in a way that isn't insulting an artists age or talent, and it needs to be clear and precise in what specifically they did wrong!" (Pirran)

And thanks, Meteoroid, for stepping in with some input. 😊

bubblez • 2 September 2013 at 10:51 AM

@ladynymeria

1) It's still not a new website. So it hasn't been up for 10+ years, it /has/ been here for a while. And they should already have their "groove" If they don't by now, they never will.
2) No it's not. You must not have noticed all the people quitting, all the people who are upset, all the things that are wrong. I can't help it if you turn a blind eye.
3) It's not twisted, you just can't comprehend what opinions are, you don't have to like but that doesn't mean they aren't opinions. And I'm not getting defensive. Again, you just do not understand what opinions are. That's a you problem.
4) This is NOT a constructive criticism forum. For the last time, this is JUST for opinions. How har is that for you to understand? -_-

@karamel

Have you read this whole forum? Apparently not. My first post said

"I don't think the art is bad, it's just not Eggcave style. It doesn't fit with any travels, and they look weird around other creatures o-o"

That's not rude, and it actually says the art isn't bad.

Opinions are opinions. They are not to help anyone, they are just opinion. Again, this forum is about opinions, not criticism. And opinions don't ave to be sugar coated. Not everyone is going to be all positive about something they don't like. Deal with it.

And to what Pirran said, many users have said they don't like the style the artists have been using lately. Some even went into details. Yet we keep getting the style we don't want. (She's also referring mainly to what bot said, which was beyond just being an opinion.)

@Meteoroid

I can understand that. But what about new users or inexperienced users who get scammed of their rare creatures? Or users who get scammed of their EC? Why not just take away trading altogether? What do you plan to do about those scams?

And while I am glad that things are coming in the future, how will you (you as in all) plan to fix the problem we are faced with today? How can we trade to get older creatures? The biggest thing on EggCave is the creatures. And there's no way now for new users, or even users now, to obtain "wishlist creatures" with trading other "wishlist creatures" & some users don't have creatures that they can trade. It's no fun to come on to a website where you little to zero chance to get a retired creature you want. At least before you had a chance. You might have had to wait and work for sometime, but the chances were there, and weren't little. And while this seems irrelevant, try looking at a trader's point of view.

But I really do hope these new things up and coming are fun and give people a reason to stay. Because as of right now, there's nothing.

karamel • 2 September 2013 at 11:16 AM

@bubblez Many people seem not to understand the word 'scam'. Scamming is not under/overoffering. Scamming includes (but certainly isn't limited to) the examples in the Site Guidelines. You can't get scammed of your EC because you're able to directly offer it on trades.

Also, I was just trying to show you a way to be able to improve the things you've got bad opinions about. I'm certainly not going to stop you from having your opinion, but /if you want things to actually get better/, you'll have to provide constructive crits and not just your opinion.
On the other hand, if you're not looking to improve anything, you can certainly just post your opinion. No one is going to stop you there.

edit: I might also add that trading is certainly not something you are obliged to take part in and that it's not a must to have your dream creatures. The whole point of rarity is that some creatures are /rare/.

puppymaks • 2 September 2013 at 11:30 AM

@rosamund
Agree. Of all these I only like Oos and Baku, very, very little. I don't "love" one of new creatures or "very, very much like" any of these... :/

Meteoroid • 2 September 2013 at 1:41 PM

@bubblez
CaveCash involves real-life currency to obtain it, so it takes a bit of precedence when making sure that users are not being cheated out of it. It ultimately just wasn't healthy for the website to be dominated by CC trading and it should not have went on for as long as it did, even if it meant risking the future sale of CaveCash.

Scams will always happen and it's inevitable no matter where you go. If there is a chance that a user might be able to take advantage of others, they will certainly go for it. However, @karamel brings up a very valid point in her post. Similar to when users say their account was 'hacked', there also seems to be a misuse of the word 'scam'. It stinks when a user under/overoffers on a Trade Lot, but it is hard to really call it much of a scam unless the user is actively going out of their way to convince others that a certain creature is less valuable than what it is. Clicking 'accept' on a Trade Lot and then later regretting your Trade isn't always necessarily a scam. The forums is a generally useful place to visit when you're simply unsure with how much a creature is worth. Some may argue that CaveCash could have been added to the Trade Center when offering on Lots, but that really wasn't in Egg Cave's best interest to do so. CaveCash should have been quarantined to the Cash Shop Park and never allowed to leak out to the rest of the website.

Honestly, reports about trading scams don't appear all too often on our end. When it does happen, the user causing the trouble is warned (and depending on the severity of what they were doing, deleted from Egg Cave itself). If this is more widespread than it appears, then users are reluctant to send in Tickets, which is a problem. Moderators want nothing more than to help out users facing issues such as being scammed, but even we cannot watch over the -entire- website 24/7. If there is ever a problem with a potential or known scammer, we need users to report this kind of behavior so we can look into it.

As for retired creatures, I certainly see where you are coming from. Older, retired creatures will of course become rarer as time ticks on by (which is frustrating for users who weren't there when they were released). That leaves us with a couple alternative options that will please some and upset others;

1. We could re-release any and all retired creatures, but that simply wouldn't work out if you look back at older events. The re-release of the '09 Christmas creatures is proof of that. Taking the overwhelmingly negative user feedback into account, @Ian made a statement that included his stance of never releasing old creatures on to the website anymore to retain creature value. This idea is far too dangerous to go through with in my opinion. Newbies will undoubtedly be thrilled, but the older members? Not so much.

2. We could just leave things as they are right now, but there will still be complaints about how hard it is to obtain older creatures. The main idea was to increase the demand for EC (and thus making Trading with EC a bit easier), but as I have stated already, progress has been slow lately so it is difficult to gauge the effectiveness of the idea until it actually goes into full effect. I know it has been an excruciating wait, but the only advice I can personally offer is to be patient.

Egg Cave Creatures are honestly a double-edged sword. All I know is that the re-enabling CaveCash trading will not fix this issue (since it was still an issue even when CC was able to be gifted). I truthfully cannot give you a definitive answer in regards to the next step that Egg Cave heads in.

Deleted • 2 September 2013 at 10:32 PM

@immortalraven Very kind but meh
@bubblez Not really i mean XD
@sony Something nice the lissam was a gwnius
@Meteoroid we know :/ it was really thoughtful of you mods

sony • 2 September 2013 at 11:38 PM

@rosamund
IKR! The first monthlies were the best! ^^

mrsgiggles • 3 September 2013 at 9:33 AM

@Meteoroid Are there THAT many older users around anymore to get outraged over a rerelease of practically extinct species like Doovoo, Macbot, Onny?

I don't see the harm of doing it during a special event, like, say, Egg Cave's 5th birthday or something.

Meteoroid • 3 September 2013 at 9:39 AM

@mrsgiggles
It's hard to say, to be honest. While there have undoubtedly been a number of users who have left the website since their release, there are still a handful of dedicated users who have traded an arm and a leg for those extremely rare creatures. I, personally, am not opposed to the re-release of older creatures. I'm just thinking of how such an event would play out and if it'd even be worth it.

mrsgiggles • 3 September 2013 at 9:51 AM

@Meteoroid

Ultimately, Egg Cave isn't a democracy - it shouldn't be, so if Ian thinks a rerelease is fine, I don't see why not.

Those people who traded a lot for those rare creatures did so willingly. No one forced them to. Begrudging others for the possibility that they get those pets "easier" is, to me, bizarre. It's like you paid a lot for a house in a neighborhood that eventually fell in value - are you going to screech at your neighbors who bought property in the area at a lower price?

olimpt • 3 September 2013 at 9:57 AM

@Meteoroid
I think that if there was a re-release of old creatures again, that it should be as rare to find as a asteroid creature and you could only find them for one hour each year. I think it could balance things out a bit.

maineen • 3 September 2013 at 10:00 AM

@meteoroid

if there is re-release, to make some older users happy the creatures could be re-coloured or something.

Deleted • 3 September 2013 at 10:12 AM

@mrsgiggles
There are many people.
Who paid hundreds of dollars for their rare creatures.
With REAL money.
or HARD work.
That is invaluable, and very sensitive players may even quit.

@karamel
You're my advocate.
The devil's


@Meteoroid
The point here is that people misuse the word 'scam' whenever a small shortcoming happens. When they forget to know the worth, they say that the other person scammed them when they didnt know the actual value. Actually, a real word to be used there is "tricked - but this is drama inducing", but the word "ripped off" would be more appropriate.
But the first place is that it should not be coming out and spreading like wild fire as the ways blog posts come to be known. They should be discussed by each other, and brought to a moderator and then solve the dispute as soon as possible.
Is there a chance of implementing CC in the trade center?
As well as various portals being created for CC transactions and EC transactions (without junk eggs) as now, nobody cares to buy CC, and barely nobody trades CC creatures, or those who do, want over offers, or have specific creatures in their mind.
The overall prediction of the CC disablement was an increased worth of EC, and balancing both the currencies, but it has proved more harmful, as just because the CC gifting was turned off, trading was cut off 75%. The first month, was simple, people got CSPs for less prices, and the time I seen this, I predicted myself that it'll run out very soon. After that, barely any trades were being conducted. I can not get any new CSPs, without having to buy CC, giving me an option to quit. My parents are biased over the fact that we have to view our pixels, which are not tangible, for which we spend real money.
The overall predictions of the CC disablement were supposed to happen, but it got interrupted in between, destroying the whole trade market. Now the value of EC, is more low than ever, and CC dominates the whole place.
Frozen Greem eggs, worth 750 - 800CC, even go for more than 20 million EC, which is not at all a reasonable price. People would have to spend years selling travels again and again to get profits enough to get a price.
This was a failure for the whole plan deployed. Actually, the plan went astray in between when the whole aftermath was to approach. The aftermath brought up a ridiculous price for CC. Now more than 75% of the community would think that the time before disablement of CC gifting would be better.
They used to get CC for travels, CC for new LEs, and as such, getting a CSP each month, was very easy. Now new travels hardly go for 300k, which is about 10CC, not even enough for a Star Potion or Gender Change.
The new EC to CC rates are going about 1CC = 20k EC.
These rates are ridiculous. Earlier, it used to be 1 CC = 10k EC, which was quite reasonable (than the current price). People could accumulate CC in bits, and get a CC creature.
The release of the Otts and Lovarts resulted them going for 250CC each. Active users and newbies were able to get enough for a CSP creature that month, at the very time of the Limited Edition Creatures and their release. Same happened with the St. Patrick's Day creatures release, and it was very easy to get CSPs. The new travels went for upto 2million EC, and as such we could have get enough for a CSP if we sold 3 new travels. That was quite reasonable for having luck, swiftness and agility in getting the new travels very soon, as well as trading them out for the highest prices. The prices are all disturbed now.
The EC market has been literally ruined. It is very hard to get any more creatures now. The price for a CSP is 8 - 10 million EC.
I have been affected a lot through this change. I ranted over this, without hesitating, but realized that I was going out of the line.
But this is leading to the end of the line. I could say that 75% of the CC buyers do not buy CC anymore. They have quit/took hiatuses/or stopped trading CC, due to this new change.
Various contest were held with prizes of 50CC - 1500CC. This prizes were very useful for newbies to get along with the market, and get their first CSP.
It was very fishy when CC gifting was disabled, and people supported it and started selling CSPs for 2mil each. I knew that it would run off, and I was investigating the recent flutuations. All the CC suppliers have run off, and there are barely 1-2 people who sell monthlies, at fair prices. But others are unreasonable (asking for creatures worth 1k CC or so)
No offense to anyone, and not indicating any person directly or indirectly through my post, but this fact exists that CSPs have very hard to obtain like before.
The months ago, when CC trading was there, I could get 2-3 monthlies for me, as well as 3-5 extra monthlies to trade, and maybe 1 for gifting, when friend's birthdays came up, or when I used to randomly visit people, or gifting topics and gift people.
It has crossed the limit. It is running out of hand.
I cant get anymore CC. I only have 750 left, and I need 2 more freezes.
Who could say that monthlies strike out, so flashing and dashing that the prices again increase, to more ridiculous prices of 30 - 40k per 1CC.

In my views, the only solution for this problem, and to squash this affecting problem, is to restore all possible ways of trading CC.
Enabling gifting CC, as well as EC options in another section of Ark City, and implementing CC and EC into trades.
Removing the need to have a junk egg to offer.
Most probably installing an Auction Center or Travel Center for different trades.
I have many suggestions at the EPF Suggestions Thread

With this problem, there'd be very less scamming. That scamming can only be phishing for emails, which can be easily prevented by certain copyright tends and confirmations from moderators, as well as knowing more about the values, through EPF threads, as well as self research, and asking in the Creature Trading topic or experienced traders.

It will remove the threats of freezing scams, as CC needs a accept-reject barrier to be transferred, as well as securing people against CaveCash scams that used to occur when CC gifting was enabled.

At least this main suggestion of mine, would bring the rates down to a more reasonable price of 10k EC per 1CC.

There can be more moderators appointed to analyze all CC trades and their origins to prevent scamming.,
What would the new moderators be doing?
The current number of moderators are 7, and there are more chances of people getting selected as moderators.

I, being a active user, but a person who has broke rules a lot of times, with regret say that I am not deserving or worthy for any posts. I am reliable, and can do it, but I am hardly managing the EPF and the DCF altogether with my account. I can do more work, but I think that a sinful personality like me is not fit for even being online here.
"That last moment ... of regret, and transgressions"
Thats what I'm feeling.

Guess that serves me right.

Well, for now, that implementing CC in the trade center was the only solution that I have thought of but, its complicated.
The problem here is mainly about the crazy rates of EC.
The art can be improved. But these rates need heavy support to be improved.
One person needs to do a sacrifice to sell creatures for 2mil EC each for a while to maintain that price each month.
The Travel Scams can be avoided by adding the Travel Trade Center, as suggested by me earlier.
That makes it almost "literally" impossible to scam or hack another person, except by asking for their email or password, which is obviously rebuked by users, as well as reported on the spot.

A signboard in main pages like
"Remember; Do NOT give out your EMAIL or PASSWORD to anyone."
Painted in red, and certain words in bold, it would be easily enough for people to realize the threats as well as link with this sentence would make the whole site scammer free.

Well, thats my two cents.
[Wow, what large two cents]

It would be nice if you could tell me the time you took to read all that.

Ian • 3 September 2013 at 10:41 AM

Hi everybody!

I'd like to chime in.

I'd first like to comment on Egg Cave's art. To begin, please think before you criticize new creatures, as our artists do read and see your comments. They are real people too, who are putting their best effort forward. It's fine if you do not prefer the newest creatures and it's fine for you to say so, but please use common courtesy as you voice your opinion.

If you're wondering how and why Egg Cave's art has changed and is changing, it's because we've cycled through many different artists over this past year. In fact, it's probably been the most unsettling time, as we've had artists that have missed deadlines, disappeared, and left us scrambling for midnight releases (1st of the month). That's why I'm really grateful for the new artists like Pirran and others, because they've stepped in at critical times to fill the monthly quota of stuff that we release on Egg Cave. What I am basically saying is that, without our newest artists, you wouldn't be getting monthly releases. I am constantly searching for new artists, but schedules have proved to be quite difficult to regulate. So yeah. Be thankful.

* * *

With regards to the economy, I know that it needs work.

@frosted thanks for your thoughts. I am thinking long and hard on them.

While I know my thoughts don't address every concern, please know that we are 100% committed to Egg Cave. We know about these issues and are seeking to improve the site. They are growth-related; we can only continue to go up from here.

Thanks.

Meteoroid • 3 September 2013 at 10:58 AM

@frosted
Thing is, Egg Cave shouldn't have to run off of CaveCash for Trading to work. The only way more CaveCash can enter the economy is through being purchased by actual, real-life currency. In a sense, users would have to keep paying money just so the game itself could keep going. Business-wise it may be a good strategy, but I question the morality of allowing that to happen again. CaveCash has since become the gold standard on the website when it should never have entered the economy the way it did in the first place. Users need to shake this habit. Re-adding the ability to transfer CC would just be too complex to regulate and it will only cause a larger rift between users. Adding specially-appointed moderators to oversee these transactions seems unnecessarily convoluted.

I don't know why the CC Gifting option was implemented on the website like the way it was, but as the name of the feature implied, it was meant for gifting CC to users with nothing expected in return. This happened a whole lot less and in turn became another currency for Trading.

@maineen @olimpt
Thank you for your suggestions. 😊

@mrsgiggles
You're 100% that the final decision with anything on the website rests in the hands of Ian. It doesn't have to be a democracy, of course, but I do find the varying opinions of users to be a valuable resource in helping guide along new features for Egg Cave.

@Ian
Thank you so much for your input.

olimpt • 3 September 2013 at 11:05 AM

@Ian
Thanks for clarifying 😊

mrsgiggles • 3 September 2013 at 11:17 AM

@frosted As I've said, no one forced them to pay so much for those pets. If they really wanted those pets, then the matter should end there. They can't control how others get the same pet, or whether the pet should be released or not.

These pets are not Monet paintings. Some perspective will be nice.

@Meteoroid True, but at the same time, I find it frustrating that there are a handful of people that constantly act like their thoughts must be counted at every aspect of Egg Cave, and raise all kinds of drama every time they feel offended. I believe some have flounced and threatened to quit at least three times in the last few months alone. 😊

Meteoroid • 3 September 2013 at 11:24 AM

@mrsgiggles
I totally see where you are coming from and I heartily agree on all points.
Perhaps we'll find a happy balance some day. 😋

Deleted • 3 September 2013 at 12:05 PM

@mrsgiggles
If recent CSPs were to be released again, thats okay.
But old ones, would cause quite a problem...

If you meant me over that,
I'm this time on the verge of quitting.
Though drama makes me say so.

@Meteoroid @Ian
Yeah. The disablement of CC trading completely by shutting down the Trade Center would be another option, but like so, people would only have commons and nothing else.
The old times were actually better than the situation now.
I was against the disablement, but got used to it soon, but I had a slight flaw in my mind.
That flaw would have been this situation, and it happened as I suspected. So mainly, the problem behind this is just that disablement. People dont want to waste time giving or taking very long and huge IOUs, so it is almost impossible to get something with some pure CC.

CSPs, when less priced can be more reasonable, but there might be a problem in managing the site in half the amount as it used to come before,
So the idea of implementing CC is one which I support.
That was the only thing which I could think about this time.
I'll come up with others views and other possible solutions as soon as I ponder upon some good views.

Decreasing the pricings of CSPs may cause some problems in the society, and the most harmless way, is to implement trading currency.
Without having a CC trading medium, CC is becoming the platinum currency, and dominating the whole of EggCave. EC goes for very less values than before, as told by me in my earlier posts. It was clarified by Ian and Meteoroid.
I am sure that this was caused due to the disablement, and I do not get that much trades, as well as less number of CC trades going on as people just are biased over IOUs.
Certain people do not have any trust in people online, which they'd certainly not do, because its a long time, and if they do not give the CC, it'd be hard.

CC as a gold currency, is always better than it being the platinum currency.
That view point can be applied here, by saying that selling 1CC for 10k EC, is more reasonable than the current prices of 16 - 22k EC.

Now if someone told a fake IOU, and scammed someone, they'd run off, and thus increasing more chances for scams.

I give my suggestion that the Trade Safety page should be updated with certain guidelines regarding CC IOUs as that used to be common ever since CC gifting was disabled.
To make sure that either party has no assurance that the CC would be returned or so.

Another perspective of enabling the CC gifting, would still give chances to certain scams that used to happen earlier.

A good suggestion with the implementation of CC in the trade center to have logs of all trades including CC, for future references, as well as deleted, or stored in a personal backup after sometime.

A format like:
User - Sent/Received - Creature - Date - Time - IP
frosted - 3000/0 - Pixgog - 9/3/2013 - 11:58AM ECT - **.****.****

That would be better for references. As well as to prevent unauthorized access.
To clarify future transactions, a system can be programmed to transfer it into a backup file, thus securing many transactions, as well as having transaction logs.

In response to Meteoroid,
Actually, the better creatures are with CaveCash, and if the common user who cant buy CC cannot get CC, then what is the point?
The point is that they would be stuck with LEs, and the people who use money, will have the higher end of the rope.
It is justifiable that a CC buyer should have a higher preference, or getting the higher end of the rope, but that can be seen from another perspective as well.
The CC buyer doesnt do any hard work, but uses their hard earned or easily got money and skips the necessary hard work needed to finish their wishlist, and the non-CC buyers do a lot of hardwork, and without spending money, they get the same creatures within course of time, and of course, after the time the CC buyers get theirs.

My strategy was a good strategy business wise strategy, if the site was running in loss, or in need of money desperately for the constant running, then it would have been better to adopt that, but as time goes, the number of CC buyers decreases, and it would result in EC being deserted.
I suggested this on account that EC would be as active as it earlier used to be.

It would cause some problems, and people would have to adapt to it, the same way they did with the CC gifting disablement, and by course of time, it would be maintained and the EC value would remain the way it was.

I am not trying to influence anybody with words, but I was giving my two cents regarding this issue.
Though it is out of topic, this problem is also affecting the EC community, more than any mere problem with the art.
The monthlies come and go, but these rates influence the people for a long time.
It is like a comparison between weather and climate.

It was actually a good way, for hardworking users, to earn their pixels, while people who were busy, but interested to get it speedily.

* * *
Regarding the art of these months, this is not much of a calamity such as the new EC - CC market.
These come and go, and who knows?
Better may lay in hand.
Dont get disappointed, and have hope for tomorrow.

Please do take in mind, that these are made my artists, who are reading all this rude comments on them.

Please do notice that if these artist weren't there, you would not even have these creatures to see. There are many people disappointed with the creatures, but there are also many people satisfied with them.

And mostly, many people are inducing drama and tension over this issue. If the monthlies were to be better, they would not have even bought them, but were just in this matter to spread it out.
[Again, no offense, as well as no reference to anyone]

This topics just create drama, as well as arise much of a rebel between the people in the EC community.
What was the problem with the cool Vecker egg, and the Oos itself was a bit good.
Last months creatures were really better, and even the Riggert was kind of a popularity.
Just check how much people took them, and never gone by any biased opinions or stereotyped thinkings.
Many creatures as the Kirin, Biwo, Felindle, Greem, Leroon, Aguaille, Riggert, Danaus and Poplin were so popular, and just look at the brighter side.
There are creatures good as well as bad in artwork, but they have various reasons.
Lack of time, was the main reason for the July release, and it caused a lot of problems.
The next time, there was much effort in the CSPs, and the Kinka was very good. The Zubflug was a good one for those who love bugs like Cetopias and Slysals.
There are various reasons behind this.
Just pretend that if you were given this at that time, would you be able to do it?

The artists also have a life, and they are not completely working full time for EggCave. It may be a voluntary position but if they weren't there, just think that you would not have even seen the Baku, which is obviously one of the best creatures for this month, as you can see its demand in the TC.
People started paying 40k a piece for mortal Bakus.

The problem is biased thinkings. People lead others into this and create drama. Please do avoid thinking the way others think and take your own thinking into account.
Dont be biased that if that person has a better stand and say, and that you would be siding there.
Express your opinions freely, but taking measures that no site rules are broken along with its expression.

Just think that there is something better in stock for tomorrow. The Halloween Bash is approaching, and it would rock the whole community, and it will be very popular. Have hope for tomorrow, what happened has happened.

By protesting against artists and publicly denouncing them, there is no use, as the monthlies would not change between the month.

The past has been over, the present is going on, and secure the future, for you will hope for something good, and I really do have an assurance that this time effort would be put on.

Always look at the bright side, rather than being pessimistic.
Have optimistic thinkings and be positive.

Well, that was my views.

* * *
@Ian
You edited that post?
[I didnt get that ping]

* * *
Finally, I am contributing to the society. At least as amendments for what I've done.

Helping the society as amendments and restitution for what I have done, is the only reason I stay here

Happy to help!

Ian • 3 September 2013 at 12:32 PM

@frosted

Thanks for expressing your views about the artwork. These are good thoughts that we all need to keep in mind.

With regards to the economy, you've stated that 1 CC is going for about ~20k EC. You mentioned that these rates are quite high in comparison to the past (before CaveCash gifting was removed).

This is to be expected. By keeping both currencies separate, they are able to hold their own values. CaveCash can hold its own for CSP creatures (which is what it's meant to be tied to). Users can charge however much EC they'd like for these creatures. And EC can hold its value to everything in the public markets (and now has more buying power against CC).

And yes, I did edit the post earlier and tagged you in it. You posted your response as I was responding.

Deleted • 3 September 2013 at 12:35 PM

@Ian
Thanks.

Yeah, there were several people asking 8 mil, and also spreading the fact that 8mil EC is the standard rate of the pricing for 500CC, and then, the increase of the price, happened again due to the less supply, and tremendous demand.

Here, the supply is very less, and the demand is very high, which led to the fluctuation. That was the main point that I figured out, while I was stalking all topics.

But there is a slight problem, that the predictions of the CC disablement, was that this will give more power to EC, but in fact, EC is having very less buying power than CC, less than before.

To solve this, many solutions will be brought up.

For now, I need to go.
But there are many people
To express their opinions.

I'll give more information when I return. (:

karamel • 3 September 2013 at 1:03 PM

I am on my iPod at an internet cafe so autocorrect should help me out here but if anything is off in my post, blame autocorrect. 😋

First off, I would like to thank Meteoroid and Ian for their inputs. Some of the sites I /used/ to go on had admins who couldn't care less about what their users thought and rarely interacted with them - much less address their concerns. Egg Cave's staff are one of my favourite things about this place - they're friendlier than staff I've seen before. I very much admire their practically unlimited patience, kindness and helpfulness and how they actually interact with the community. c:

@frosted I am torn between both sides - as always. x3 Implementing CC trading features would really benefit the community - quite obviously, (the majority of) people are happy when they get the creatures they want. I think the same amount of CC would still be bought, as if no one's buying CC, no one's trading it either. 😋

However... No one /ever/ said it was a must to have CC. In fact, the FAQ specifically states that:
"Cash Shop Park supporters get to enjoy limited-edition creatures and items; non-supporters get to enjoy an uncluttered and simple Egg Cave. Everybody wins."

Even non-supporters are still able to get LEs and CSPs. Ian could have easily banned (or blocked with coding) that - he has every reason to ("If they're CC creatures, you should get them with CC.").

Also, moderators /just/ for scamming cases? Like Meteoroid mentioned, that seems a little extensive. Things like that don't happen as regularly as you may think - not that anyone's complaining!

I also agree with Meteoroid's statement: "Thing is, Egg Cave shouldn't have to run off of CaveCash for Trading to work."
I feel like it's more down to the users. In the first place, we abused the system. The EC staff (or just Ian) had every right to take it down. There's a reason it was called 'CC /Gifting/'. I believe Ian stated somewhere that CC was/is never meant to be for trading.

Then there's how we trade. It's certainly not the staff's fault that we're stingy with our values and whatnot. We can't blame them for everything that has happened on this site - good or bad.

I am personally /very much/ against re-releases. If you weren't there, tough luck. I don't care if all of the community is begging for a re-release - tough luck if you weren't there. You can't have everything. I don't want Egg Cave to be a place where it's possible to get any creature you want - I want it to be a place where it's impossible to get every single thing. Sort of like an extremely difficult version of Pokemon and it's impossible to complete the Pokedex. If it's so easy to get everything, what's the point of playing it? Where's the fun in obtaining one of the creatures on your wishlist when you know that it's going to be just as easy to get the rest?

Frosted, about your Trade Safety CC IOUs updating thing... That isn't going to change anything. You could slap a rainbow optical illusion that burned your eyes every time you went to the CC gifting page and scams would still probably happen. People are just that spiteful.

Also, the mods cannot - and should not, really, because it was advised that you don't do CC trading in the first place - do /anything/ if you get scammed by CC. So any CC transfer history would be pointless in scam investigations.

"The CC buyer doesnt do any hard work ..." (replying to the whole paragraph here)
And what's the big deal about that? It's not like it's unfair. That's just the way that things are. Unfair would mean that the CC buyer hacked or cheated. Buying CC doesn't make it unfair. Saying that CC buyers are unfair is like saying people with fast internet is unfair because they can get EC quicker.

It is fair. It is still legit.

On to the art... I am just disappointed in how our community has reacted to the new art and artist. I would say "If you can't do it, don't complain" but I know a way to counter that. (*cough* Sports commentary. 😋 *cough*) Nevertheless, in all seriousness, I was so embarrassed at how we reacted. Sure, it's change and we're not used to it, but that seriously does not mean /AT ALL/ that we can insult the artist personally. Nor does it mean that we can throw so much negativity around.

I think quite enough drama has been induced just because of some small art change. Please, please put yourself in the artist's shoes before you say something about their art (or even them personally - I've seen a few nasty comments). They are not emotionless, ignorant and naive servants that don't pay attention to any comments.

This is especially important: "Dont be biased that if that person has a better stand and say, and that you would be siding there."
I agree /so much/. I've noticed a few (not going to name names or how many) wall post conversations. I won't go into detail but we are all affected by peer pressure and I hope that people are strong enough to stick up for your opinions. I don't care if everyone else has a different opinion - they're your thoughts. Don't let people sway you. Doesn't matter if it's a random stranger or a government official or even a god.

Ian • 3 September 2013 at 2:59 PM

@frosted

Quote:

"...that the predictions of the CC disablement, was that this will give more power to EC, but in fact, EC is having very less buying power than CC, less than before."

The laws of supply and demand, as you have described above, are operating exactly as expected.

Despite the fluctuation in exchange rates, the two currencies, as a result of being separate, are now reflecting their truest value. You have to remember that CaveCash is no longer the gold standard in trading and you should no longer view it as such.

Additionally, a currency's perceived exchange rate is not entirely indicative of its value. Another thing that affects its value is how often the currency is used for bartering or trading. Before CC gifting was removed, EC was not frequently used.

I find this funny: you just wrote that the demand for CaveCash is going down. That's true because it's not the gold standard. So you admit that EC is gaining value?!

I should also mention that people who actually have *bought* CaveCash (not stockpiled via trading) do not share your same concerns.

@karamel

Thanks for providing more of the history behind the CSP and CaveCash. CaveCash wasn't created to be an open currency. It is, by nature, a closed currency. It always has been.

The problem came in when "gifting" was used as under-the-table trading. Suddenly, non-CSP creatures and items all began to have a "CaveCash value." A paid currency dominating trading on a free site? How is that even close to being a free site?

All users have the option to purchase CaveCash. You can either say yes. Or no. Nobody is forcing you to purchase CaveCash. Therefore, if you choose to say no to CaveCash, you are also saying no to obtaining CSP creatures and items (outside of trading for EC). That's just the way it is. And now that CaveCash doesn't dominate everything, the EC has some leverage against it (i.e. a user could put a newly-purchased CSP creature up for trade and set an EC value for it -- before, people would have just kept trading for CC).

victorythevaporeon • 3 September 2013 at 3:15 PM

@rosamund
I actually wouldnt mind my FantaOrange being frozen on 2nd stage, as long as I could slip in the name 'Herobrine' 😋 (Sadly, i'm a poor little person. Plus, if I couldnt get Herobrine,a green,stripeless tiger won't suit FantaOrange)
As for the other stages of Danaus...well:
The egg stage is really pretty, and the art looks AMAZING!The first stage is a real let down... (I'm hoping for it to evolve VERY quickly...) The second stage reminds me of Herobrine 😸...nuff said.The third stage doesnt have awesome art,but its concept and adorableness (Thats a word) makes it LUCKY to escape my horrible art list (in my head). As for the Poplin, it looks vile.When i found out it was user suggested, i decided to check the concept art, knowing that Ian or whoever the artist is tend to make slight changes. 'Why?'.The concept art looks so much better than what it is.@pipkitten, go put yourself a sticker on your 'well behaved chart'...now.The artist made it look so light and emotionless that it should be a Halloween creature... :/


DISCLAIMER
No offense to ANYONE here 😊

thatdarncat • 3 September 2013 at 4:16 PM

Just stop making bugs. Or amphibians. We've got enough of them, I think.

Deleted • 3 September 2013 at 7:06 PM

@victorythevaporeon Well I actually am fine with the armadillos and such.They are actually okayish looking this month.Be sure to create some toads and whales

Deleted • 3 September 2013 at 8:35 PM

@Ian @karamel
I'm not viewing CC as the gold currency, but was just defending the point that earlier, as CC used to be the gold currency, yet the rates of trade for EC were STABLE. They were reasonable than this time, as well as

For karamel,
Most people trade CC rather than CSPs.
When a CC IOU is taken, then it is like waiting some months (as people wouldnt probably take a lot of monthlies in if its a good amount of CC) and then it leaves a prolonged time gap to pay off the money, which the buyer would rather prefer to

As for the EC - CC conversion before the CC gifting disablement, I used to sell 250 - 1000CC (any amount) and by trading that, I used to get 2.5 - 10 million EC. Due to some demands in between, I increased my conversion rates as 1CC = 12k EC, but I switched back to 1CC = 10k EC between to balance the rates.

Then came the Biwo the demand was fully crazy.
I should have got something else properly to trade, but that month, a CSP went for 8mil, but the next month itself, the price dropped down to 5mil.

It dropped to 4mil in April, and after the CC gifting was disabled, people had high stockpiles of CC, and traded them for EC ranging from 2mil - 2.5mil. After their CC was finished, nobody traded anything, and finally it lead to a decrease in the worth of EC, and an increase in the demand for CC.

For karamel,
I should say that warnings about CC IOUs added to the Trade Safety page is quite reasonable and is not out of the topic. People can be scammed easily.

CC IOUs:
A user may promise to owe you a certain/specific amount of CC, but there is no assurance whether you would get the full amount or not.
Either way, there is no assurance of getting a creature for which you promised CaveCash for.

For those who rarely used CC gifting, they could criticize any point, but my sole profit of paperclip trading was through CC, which is now inaccessible.

I mentioned that the CC buyer gets the higher end of the rope, as they deserve to as they skip the hard work they have to do and directly get the creature within some days, while the non CC buyer works hard and gets their creature.

Giving a example, of a first stage Balrog. Two are being sold for 2000CC. Two people want each. One is a CC buyer and the other is a non CC buyer.
The CC buyer gets CC on the spot, and trades monthlies for the Balrog. The non CC buyer, has no CC, and asks the person to keep the Balrog, and gets about 40 million EC in a long time, and gets the Balrog.
40mil EC is something which you'd have to hard work the whole month (even more) for, while the CC buyer just gets off because, they can afford to buy CC, or their parents allow them to do so, and its their own desire to buy CC or not, or due to their busy times, they cannot risk loosing the Balrog, and cannot utilize much time for hardworking to get it, so they directly get it.
That is justifiable, but the hard work that someone has to do to get that much, if they were to do any small manual job, part-time or full-time, they would have get more than a pixel..

People are utilizing their valuable time in this site, and it is the members of the site, who need to respect their hard work, by which they achieve their wishlist creatures as soon as possible.

Actually, it was dominating the site, I agree to that. But simply obtainable travels and LEs, were holding much value, and non-CC buyers (being the majority) got hold of a lot of them, and this traded them for CC, and obtained CC without being to do any hardwork, The rates were stable, and getting that was quite a reasonable price.
The price was around 1CC = 8k EC, which was quite reasonable before the CC disablement. It continued to be so, and the prices decreased and demand was so high, that the sellers ran out of stock, and as such they went out of business, then the current stockpiles of CC of the non CC buyers were depleted.
This is that moment, of despair.

If you stalked the Creature Trading forums, you would have seen about 5 CC trading topics per month, and people used to trade CSPs, old LEs, old CSPs, - all for EC.

Their truest values are coming up, thats right. But the price now is very unstable, and I wont think that the price of CC would decrease, and increasing EC worth, but I fear lest that the opposite happens, giving more power to CC.

CC is to be an open currency, which needs either money or hard work to obtain. If those who are busy cannot do hard work, they can use money, and if those who cannot use money, can work hard, and achieve their goals.

I am not publicly protesting, so dont criticize me in any form of my post, but I am actually explaining the current situation briefly.

That sentence did not have any indications that the CC buyer was cheating out something or doing it unfair. They used their money, as they valued their time more, and the others may not value their time more, as they might have a lot of free time, and as such they work hard for their creatures.
There is no biased opinions to go against such things. Please keep it a need-to-know problem of these times, as that is the main problem in the Trading section.

As such less trades occur, less CC is bought, and less CSPs are sold. If CC gifting was there, you would have seen more than 10 Veckers and 5 Oos in the TC for trade.

It was kind of unfair to block the access to CC, as such people without money, are kicked out, and never get a chance to get CC. Because CC is not accumulated or got by itself, it is earned.

I hope that people have understood the meanings of my sentences and have not took them in another meaning from another perspective, and will start criticism in the future.


* * *
About the art thing, when if people have the courage to do something, it is someone supporting them.
And people have muster enough courage to speak up when their friends are with them. Please dont be affected by any peer pressure.
I have also noticed a lot of wall posts in which two people complain, one is mad over the changes, and the other one is kinda dissatisfied, but the other person influences this person, and both of them go and complain with a combined force.

* * *
Also, here about the art of the CSPs, are to be concerned only to those who buy these CSPs regularly, or were planning to purchase this year. Influence of peer pressure has pulled in certain people who do not even buy CC critters, but still protest along with their friends, as it was a warfare.

Please overcome this peer pressure and explain your real opinions, which are free from other interferences.

Meteoroid • 3 September 2013 at 9:25 PM

@frosted
Glancing over at a couple particular forum topics, it appears to me that CaveCash is still being pushed as the gold standard despite its removal a little while back. This is an unhealthy mindset to continue having. EC and CC should not at all be interchangeable currency. There isn't a point to keep it going as such.

The Cash Shop Park, from my perspective, is a reward for the users who want to support Egg Cave and keep it afloat with real-life currency. As a 'thank you' for their patronage, these users are given access to exclusive creatures and items, where they are able to do whatever they see fit with them. Generously, @Ian implemented the CaveCash Gifting feature so users who were unable to purchase CC would be able to obtain it from a kind friend. The system was subsequently abused and thus removed from the website. That does not seem entirely unfair, especially when you remember that there were -multiple- warnings posted on the website about using CaveCash as a form of trade currency. The privilege to transfer CC was abused despite warnings, so this privilege was revoked. That is the bare bones of why the decision was made.

Now, what -would- be unfair is making Cash Shop creatures unable to be placed in the Trade Center at all, like what @karamel stated. This would completely block non-CS supporters from obtaining these creatures at all, meaning that no amount of hard work and effort would ever allow the chance of having CS creatures.

Reiterating what @Ian explained, re-adding CC will only make it once again the dominant currency. A currency that requires an actual person to purchase it before it can be cycled into the website. That's not free. When CC was able to be gifted, the game itself was literally revolving around money in order to play it. The argument you were making earlier that the website, as it is right now in its current state, completely runs on money simply does not add up.