🎨 Creature Suggestions Set/Compensation

prairie • 3 January 2024 at 2:47 AM

Howdy Eggcave, and Happy New Year! 🎆🎊
With the new year, we get to look forward to a whole new year of creatures here on the site. And with that, many of us can be part of it by suggesting creatures! And we're already off to a strong start with the year kicking off with 4 user-suggested creatures curtesy of the creative minds of @solnyshko, @sapphire12, @opalquinze, @daisycat and @redflipflap.
But with the new year comes changes and improvements; and today I wanted to kick off a discussion for how Eggcave can help those who design creatures that the site uses.


Throughout my time here on Eggcave (11 year anniversary on the site tomorrow!), I have always loved how much opportunities the players get to contribute to the site creatively. As a young 14 year old, it was my dream to create creatures that the community would love. And now, 10 years later, I've helped design 30 creatures here on Eggcave.
However, as I got older; I did notice how creature suggestions could be Cash Shop Pets. "Awesome!" I used to think; "that means they loved the design.". But I always found it a struggle to collect my suggestions stages. As an artist and a suggester; I'm proud of the contribution I made, and wanted to have *one of every stage* of the creatures the site made reality. However, with the instances they became Cash Shop pets, it became hard. If I wanted to get one of every stage of my suggestion + freeze them; (not including the 200/500cc of the creator's copy given by EC) the toll would be 1200-2100cc or $12-21 USD. I didn't always have the means or ability to buy CC, as I was a kid - or, as I grew older; simply had more pressing things to do.

With the addition of my idea for a CDWC Winner mark and Creator mark, writers and Artists got some more special recognition; but I still feel like there could be some improvement.


What are you suggesting? :
I am asking and suggesting that Creators (meaning the concept artists who submitted the idea in the Fan Art & Creature Suggestions forum & their collaborators) get either one of these two perks:
Option A: suggesters are given 4 copies (or however many stages there are including egg) of their creation. Only one would have the Creator mark.
Option B: suggesters are given CC compensation along with their one suggestion copy. I'd like to just set this value at 1500cc.
Neither of these options factor in freezes and won't; as frankly, that is your decision to make after you have the creatures.
In my personal opinion: I like Option A best. This is simply because I don’t aim or want to make frequent suggesters ‘more rich’ than the rest of Eggcave. The only reason I remotely offered it as an option was so people could at least have ammunition to buy their own suggestion if they so chose. But personally; I think Option A is better. Creators can keep their collection, trade it off, do giveaways, or whatever else they please with the extras.

Prairie, Isn't this a Bit Much?? :
No. Not at all.
Art takes time and effort; and your time and effort is worth more than $5 USD. Especially when the site sometimes stands to profit from your contribution.
Also; in the Words of this Blog Post from 2011:
"Did you know? All of the St. Patrick's Day creatures, except the Luckuar, were suggested by real users just like you! Their suggestions made it through and were made into real Egg Cave creatures! If one of these creatures above were your creation, you've been acknowledged in The Archives and at least one of the species has been automatically added to your account..."
It was stated that "at LEAST one" would be given to you; but its only ever been one seemingly since. I say its time to make a change. What's the harm in giving your contributors something for their dedication, passion, and time to the site?


I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions on this matter!

Pings
@ian

dragrawr • 3 January 2024 at 2:53 AM

@prairie I totally agree with you. I’ve chatted about this with multiple people including @twinkle and @daisycay about this topic before but I never felt confident enough to outright ask it. I would prefer getting more creatures personally since just CC would make it so that people would try to suggest for that purpose only.

I spend HOURS on my suggestions, and I know I’m the one suggesting hem but compensation for my time, effort, and outright dedication to the site would be much enjoyed and frankly needed. Especially when it’s cash shop creatures.

especially cus if they are cash shop creatures and popular eggcave is making money off my character/design

When I get a suggestion into cash shop I too am super excited, but it is extremely difficult to continuously raise cc for it.

But again, I would much prefer more creatures than outright cc, but that’s my own personal take !!

But yes, prairie, thank you so much for bringing this up. I have suggested quite a few now, and I would very much appreciate being given more of my babies since they and this site mean a whole lot to me.

@redflipflap
@senkou
@shirothekittehlover

prairie • 3 January 2024 at 2:59 AM

@dragrawr
Couldn't agree more on your point of people possibly suggesting more solely to try to get CC.
All the same; if more people want to get creative - more power to 'em. 🎨✨
It'll have to stand out between everything else though. If it happens to go that route; I look forwards to seeing what creativity sparks out of it.
But personally, I prefer Option A as well.

Yeah, I thought about bringing this topic up last year, but it slipped my mind.
But hey what better time to bring up New Ideas than the New Year?

dragrawr • 3 January 2024 at 4:12 AM

@prairie it’s like new year resolutions lol 😭

I couldn’t agree more. I would love to continue seeing suggestion months, but as it is a break from creating the ideas I definitely am backing Option A for the time being, though a little CC couldn’t hurt X3

shirothekittehlover • 3 January 2024 at 5:01 AM

(oh hey it's that one infamous creature creator /lh)

@prairie
To be honest, I agree with you as well. I mean, we creature creators are working so hard to give new critters to the game, so it's only fair to pay us in return, no? It's honestly really unfair to the creators when they only got a very small pay for their dedication to this little game.
And like Drag said, I'd prefer if a creator were given more than one of their own creation as well, as they might want to hoard them but if they don't have the money for it.....
Thank you for bringing this up.

senkou • 3 January 2024 at 6:52 AM

@dragrawr
thanks for the ping and i totally agree. both options would not only be compensation for the users' time but would also be a great way for eggcave to show appreciation to its' most active players. everyone i've seen who has created a pet has been an ACTIVE user who LOVES the site enough to wanna CONTRIBUTE something to it (ie. their suggestion). and as mentioned these suggestions take a lot of hard work, talent and time to come up with. so i definitely think eggcave could give back to these people a lot more than they currently are.

i still do fear that eggcave won't implement any of these options since they are such a big jump from what we are currently getting. but i think at the VERY LEAST users should be able to choose if they want their pet to be from the CSP or cave + get their suggested pet + some CC (ideally at least 1K). that way collectors can specify that they want their suggestions to be from the cave and can easily collect more than 4 for free. people who put CSP as their preference will be those who don't mind paying for their creatures to have a higher rarity and they will still be compensated with a bit of extra CC.

opalquinze • 3 January 2024 at 7:45 AM

@prairie
gosh, both options sound so nice, i definitely agree with either since i would feel like i’m really part of the community! (granted, i haven’t contributed much with creature suggestions since i’m pretty terrible at writing)

option A would be neat for the copies to be prizes in future contests/raffles! i’ve participated in a couple to see some CSP as a prize, but for most of the time, it’s usually 1st place or the lucky number that only has it since CC is pricey. if creators wish to give out their copies to others in contests/raffles without having to spend more, that would be great! key word here is “if”, so it’s really up to ‘em to either hoard or grant!

don’t really have much to say bout option B since the creators are also people that keep EC going, so compensation would be nice 👍

redflipflap • 3 January 2024 at 8:58 AM

I agree with this idea wholeheartedly. Proper appreciation and representation for artists is something that is near and dear to my heart. Thank you for posting this ♡

daisycat • 3 January 2024 at 10:30 AM

Agree 100%. Prairie made fantastic points.

Nail on the head:

"Art takes time and effort; and your time and effort is worth more than $5 USD. Especially when the site sometimes stands to profit from your contribution."

Please provide successful suggesters with three (3) additional creatures.

When I have a suggestion selected, my immediate goal after that is to collect three more, evolve them right away, and freeze them. Personally, I wouldn't mind omitting the challenge to collect three more cave creatures of my own design on their release day, or, the disappointment to spend $15 on three more cash creatures of my own design (not including evolves and freezes).

With the Chipmint, I tried auctions and trades to get three more release days. I tried dozens of cave attempts all day (only got one release day nearing midnight). It's not that the release day is my number one priority, I'm just excited to have a full set as soon as possible, evolved, frozen, travels applied, all on the same day (release day being even better).

It's almost insulting that we're given just one of our suggestions, when we designed and drew multiple stages. Personally, I find all of the suggestions to be worth far more than $5, ESPECIALLY when the site can profit from the art.

All that said, love you EC... please love us back even more. :,)

Thank you for the mention, @prairie! This discussion is well needed.

okami • 3 January 2024 at 12:14 PM

@prairie

I LOVE this idea! When my first creature suggestion got approved in November for December, I was so excited but found myself really really really hoping that it wouldn't be a cc creature for that sole reason of knowing I'd be wanting one of each stage (So that's 600cc already), and adding 1500cc onto that is a lot for many users due to irl circumstances, myself included. Giving creators enough copies to have one of each stage would be wonderful, and I am very much more in favor of option A. 😊

I did want to bring up a bit of a devil's advocate point, even though I am 100% in favor of the suggestion. In 2023 11/24 of the monthly cc creatures created were user suggestions, in 2022 it was 10/24, and in 2021 it was only 1(!). So assuming that all creators wanted one of each stage (and I'm not factoring in the instances where a creature has more than 1 creator), and ignoring the fact that some of the cc was certainly from events and such, creators in 2023 would have spent ~23,100 cc on the creatures themselves and needed freezes, ~21,000 cc in 2022, and ~2,100 cc in 2021. So for the past 2 years, it has been basically at least a guaranteed $200+/year to egg cave from the suggesters, and idk how important that practically guaranteed amount is to the site, and/or if something happened between 2021 and 2022 that financially necessitated that jump in suggestions.

Now I would hope that that number wouldn't be a make or break factor for the site, and I hope that the drastic jump from 2021 to 2022 and onwards was instead just due to possibly more creature suggestions, or site staff wanting to let people contribute more. If the latter is the case then giving 4 copies of creatures to the suggester would only enhance the experience 😊

jlya • 3 January 2024 at 12:42 PM

@prairie
I am a billion percent in agreement with this. I probably will never suggest a creature on this site but I strongly believe the artists/concept-creators of creatures that are chosen on Eggcave deserve to be compensated in some form. Not picky about the method, I just think they deserve more for their effort ❤️
As Prairie stated, Eggcave often stands to profit from the work of a creator.
I understand Eggcave artists still need to put in work but a solid chunk of that work is already done by the original user who suggested the creature. Last year so many users' ideas became a reality, and while that is a wonderful reward in itself, I think they deserve more than the creator mark and one creature. They put in so much effort. I don't think it's too much to ask some of the pressure price-wise is taken off of them to immortalize their creature/creatures in the stages they drew.
I love Eggcave so much because the site staff listens to their users. It's obvious to me this site is not just about profit. But even still, the site stands to profit from offering extra compensation, because it would encourage more people to create amazing, original suggestions. The cooler the creatures, the more people will spend to buy/freeze them. Sounds like a win-win for Eggcave to me ^^

Looking at you @dragrawr and @redflipflap. Spending your life savings to collect and freeze your creatures xD Love your work and keep it up ❤️

prairie • 3 January 2024 at 3:07 PM

Happy all of you like this idea! ❤️
I love trying to suggest better ways for the creative contributors on Eggcave to be recognized and overall just create better user engagement. It isn't too hard for suggestors to be at least given enough of the creature they made to have a full set.
In the future, I think it would be fun to see badges or achievements added to profiles or the likes: but that is a topic for another day.

More Pings:
@pipkitten
@dragonii
@isis
@ian

provo7demons • 4 January 2024 at 10:36 AM

@prairie I've actually been thinking about this for a little while! I figure that if people are willing to spend so much time and effort designing creatures, they absolutely deserve some sort of compensation. Artists work so hard to create creatures for us, they deserve to be rewarded! ❤️

dragonii • 4 January 2024 at 2:29 PM

@prairie thanks for the ping! I honestly don't have anything to add or contribute to this conversation.
But I do agree that it would be nice, if Creature suggestion artists are rewarded with some extra things 100%.

Deleted • 4 January 2024 at 2:58 PM

@prairie

*timidly raises her hand* Apart from agreeing with this suggestion, I'd also like to add something a bit selfish... not as an artist (because like many others, I'll probably never suggest anything, but still...), but as a spectator, I would like to see more... art like the original. I know EC artist can change the art and all, but... I fell like it should be more respectful to use the suggestion's original colour palette and also lineart... without changing it *too* much. Because I really, really loved for example the woofle's / chipmint / sunniflat *original* concepts way, way more than the revised version (that is still cute, but it's not what I liked more and wanted to see, If that makes sense? The original sunniflat's sploot was SO cute *cries*) and was a bit disappointed in seeing the original concepts I loved and was looking forward to, changed *so* much. 😞

prairie • 8 January 2024 at 12:27 AM

@sinthr
I might be… the odd one out on this, but I honestly don’t mind the art for this months creatures. Yes, there are discrepancies between the original suggestion and the officials, but I immediately see the similarities.
On a different note: as someone who is a professional artist who has worked on sites like eggcave; I will say overall while I’d definitely prefer some suggestions to be true to the concept art, creative freedom of the artists is something that’s still needed. **ESPECIALLY** if no note is given to keep on model with the original suggestion; which it hardly ever is.

Let’s look at some examples of some that creative freedom was used on: Fantily, Knitten, Polter, Candacade, Chipmint.
Fantily had PLENTY added, and it did use the concept of a “butterfly elephant”, but honestly the original concept are did not have a bug/elephant crossover.
Knitten kept the color scheme and some inspo from the posing of the concepts teen stage. They added on some details I love (the braid that looks like crocheting on the back and the curly tail)
Polter is one I put on here to voice I get it when people are sad their concept wasn’t followed closely. I did the Polter in collaboration with Hippy, and I know I was super proud of my work on the teen stage with its Polaroid camera. Sadly; that was entirely cut from the design. I won’t lie; I don’t particularly love how it turned out, but I accept if happens.
Candacade is one of my suggestions that was used more as ‘concept’ than anything else. The art I did was a single stage and didn’t have a ton in common with what we have today aside from ‘cangle spirit dog’. That being said; I love what the artists did with it. Sometimes I feel like it’s less a ‘suggestion’ of mine and more of a concept - which it is, as with every other suggestion essentially.
Let’s take a creature from this month: Chipmint. I see that the stripes aren’t as bold which I do miss alittle, but it certainly reads more “ice cream” to me now if I’m being honest. The child and teen poses from the concept art was kept, and the last stage was switched to teen in the official art with a spin. Overall, I satisfied with what we got. There are things I of course miss from the original, but sometimes design elements are changed as are poses (poses especially to fit the 90x90 box).

If Eggcave wants the concept art from a suggestion to be followed closely; that is a note Ian would have to give them. Or he’d have to request revisions at the sketch stage (colors and markings don’t usually happen at this time). Honestly; most professional artists (like myself) have an additional charge for revisions *after* the final, and quite frankly, that isn’t a huge concern for this site if I’m being brutal.



But that isn’t a convo this topic is for honestly.
This conversation is only about the idea of compensating Successful Suggesters with multiple copies of their suggestion (option A) or some CC as thanks (option B)

Deleted • 8 January 2024 at 6:48 AM

@prairie oops, I'm really sorry for sidetracking the discussion. >////< You do make good point and I also loved many changed design, I was thinking maybe If the user submitting it states in their post they'd prefer for the lineart not to be changed, it wouldn't hurt to respect their wishes. 😊 In any case, I'm totally supporting this, I think creators should be given way more than what we have right now in the system! And also...

@megamisama90 sorry for pinging you in, but since it's an important topic may I ask for your input too, If you want to take a look? 🙏💜

megamisama90 • 8 January 2024 at 11:27 AM

Took a look and I was just wondering what about the people who's suggestions never make the cut? Lately it has felt that there's the same people who's creations gets made. Not saying it's bad but I think other people's suggestions should come to life too, to be fair.

If this would become reality from the options before I'd pick A. In some sense it would be fair towards others more than CC unless you couldn't use the CC on anything else than those said creatures.

In a way I'm not fully with this but on the other hand I do see the original suggestion makers have put a lot of effort into their suggestions.

wonder404exe • 8 January 2024 at 11:45 AM

@megamisama90
lol
exactly why i stopped
i stand no chance lmao

@prairie
totally agree
Spending so much time on something like a creature suggestion deserve more than a creator mark especially for those who cant afford buying them in the Cash shop park

prairie • 8 January 2024 at 11:18 PM

@megamisama90
You raise a fair and completely valid point. I see plenty of the same people these days; I do like their designs, but its fair to have a more 'spread out'. Perhaps a cap as to how many someone can do in a year, definitely not more than one in the same month. (I say this as in 2019 I felt like I had FAR to many suggestions picked for December.... I wanted to see some of the others out there TBH)
It is another reason I really prefer Option A over the other.

kataclysm • 9 January 2024 at 8:00 AM

I was wondering to myself the other day, 'hey, why do I never see anything about the artists of EggCave? Where is the credit for the people that make the site what it is?'.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots, but I just don't see that much credit around. I know that suggested creatures will often have 'Description written by:' 'Designed by:' in their information at the... bottom of their profile (how many of us actually look there?), but I think even some small changes would go some way to reminding users that these creatures were made by users, 'just like us'. The creator gets the creator mark, but I think another 'profile badge' that would be suitable (in the style of the VEND machine badge, the CDWC winner badge, the creator badge) would be 'Created By'. Or, 'User Suggested Creature'. Many of the winning suggested creatures, I have to admit, I never would have known were created by an EggCave user.

Admittedly, this is a bit of a stretch from the suggestion that you're proposing, so I'll leave that idea here and move on to what you've actually suggested.

I think one of the most important points made is by @dragrawr.
'if they are cash shop creatures and popular eggcave is making money off my character/design'.
Focusing on just that point, it feels really icky that EggCave are taking your idea for free and making profit on it. I don't think I see anywhere that says, clearly enough, that users are surrendering their rights to this suggestion, or that they're giving someone else permission to make money on this concept. If I suggest a creature, it gets made, and Ian/EggCave make a couple hundred dollars on it... Where does that leave me if I want to use that concept for something else? Does that creature 'belong' to EggCave, or can I (hypothetically, for the sake of an example) try and use that creature as a mascot elsewhere? Do users agree to that, do they know the full scope of what they're surrendering and agreeing to by submitting their design? The Disclaimer and Policies page looks like it's one of EggCave's sorely outdated informational resources.

Some thoughts I have about the issue, and the suggestions you've raised:
I think an easy fix to reduce that feeling of 'Oh, is my concept not good enough to be CC worthy' is that all user suggested creatures could be free to encounter in the cave for a month, available in the store for a month afterwards for CC, and then they're gone.

Or all user suggested creatures go straight to the store and are available for a fixed price. Tangentially, I feel replacing the premium cash monthly with a user suggestion feels lazy to me, especially when members aren't being paid to do the thing for EggCave that EggCave is meant to be doing monthly anyway. We can argue that the payment of the creature itself is nice, but it's really... Not enough. Anyway, they're in the store in their own category for a separate amount of CC and are independent from the Cash monthlies. I believe that the monthly site expectations should not be coming off of the back of unpaid, unconsulted, uninformed members of EC.

Pros of sending the User Suggested Creatures straight to the cave: Everyone can get one, creators can hoard their own pets without burning their wallet to pieces, they maintain some brief exclusivity when they head to the store after their month in the cave.
Cons: They won't feel as special because real money didn't have to be spent to purchase them, their availability in the cave can lead to overpopulating (I'm sorry, Ghoubab, but I have a baker's dozen of you and I can't shift you for more than a handful of EC) and will play funsies with the creature value.

Pros of sending User Suggested Creatures to the cave cash store as their own category:
- All US-Creatures have the same value and no one's concept is 'not good enough', members concerned with release day creatures can have as many of these as they want, permitting they have the money.
Cons:
- Creators may not be able to get their hands on as many of their pets as they want, members with no CC won't be as likely to get them.

Which is where I feel your suggestion would really, really shine.
I think 'bigger prizes' are a big thought for a lot of EggCave's features, but in this context, I think a good suggestion would be '1st Creature of its kind for free (bonus points if we can start dishing out 'firsts' with species name included), an amount of CC (compensation for the effort spent, can buy you a star, some freezes, extra eggs, whatever) and a profile badge that lets everyone know, easily, that the creature exists because you suggested it.'
I feel there could even be a 'Successful Suggestor' landing page where you could choose whether you want more creatures or flat CC, or any other benefits that would be appropriate to provide to the suggestors and their concepts. Folks are giving away their creative content for free, and even if they're happy to not be paid for it, recognition of their hard work ought to be reconsidered and adjusted appropriately for the future.

I do also think it's pretty stinky that EggCave rolls up and changes the design of a user's creature with seemingly no communication. If, for example, Sunniflat's final stage as originally drawn held some sentimental value, I can also see why it would be crushing for the artist to see the reveal and see it was no longer around. I appreciate that it's a separate topic altogether, but I do think that a part of the 'Successful Suggester' Care Package could include a consultation conversation before any professional art gets drawn so that details that are important to the suggesters can be considered. My understanding is that the artists are being paid to make this suggestion a reality, but if I was buying an art commission of something I had designed, I don't think it's insane to think that a consultation at the start or during the process would be impossible. I appreciate that artists are working on deadlines and can't wait around for someone to respond, but having the option feels quite crucial, to me.
Leaving out the original suggester whilst everyone else gets paid or gets to make the final decision is ultimately what puts me off of pursuing suggesting creatures.

I do also appreciate that there is an angle here that EC is out to make money, and by handing out free cash or multiple 'premium creatures', it loses out on that profit a little bit. I think an important factor to consider here as well, is that the way we suggest creatures is flawed. I'd love to see an overhaul where creators can partake more and have more choice and freedom at every step of the journey whilst also tying in the community more. I know some sites have artist arenas where ideas can be voted for and themes for upcoming months can be announced and ideas can be made for those themes. Submitting concepts to a forum and hoping they'll be liked enough or spotted by an artist/mod/staff member is crazy, when there are many better options out there for this mechanic.

But I've written enough of a novel, and to remain on point, I completely agree. Successful suggestors ought to be better rewarded and treated better overall. I sincerely hope the staff find this suggestion useful.

dragrawr • 9 January 2024 at 11:59 AM

@kataclysm thanks for this novel I loved it. I agree with almost every single thing you brought up. I don’t mind when my creatures go to the cave because hey, more for me, but I get to wondering ‘is it because they couldn’t take money off of it’ which is.. degrading and stinky of my brain to do. lol.

I love the badge idea, many people have no idea they are suggestions!!

This is why I love the artist that has made my suggestions reality, 10/10 poses, 10/10 little fixes if the original doesn’t quite fit in the pixel box, 10/10 copying where the lighting is, 10/10 design copying. Do I mind? No. Why? Because it’s exactly what I drew, developed in another persons’ style that still pieces in mine (sharp edges, the way I draw claws, monster looking etc.) and I am very grateful to that artist! I wish, so dearly, they had a ‘artist name’ so I could attribute their work and say thank you ! It tells me who wrote the description but I want to know who made the drop dead gorgeous art. 🖤🖤

prairie • 1 February 2024 at 12:04 AM

It is Month 2 of 2024, and once more its all user suggestions.


On a separate note; given some people being a bit focused on final designs:

REMINDER:
this topic is not about site artists improving the way they do their drawings from suggestions, We Aren't In Charge Of That. You want to do something about it? Take it up with Ian, we as users don't submit the official request. Ian handles how much detail is in it/what revisions are done; he clears the stuff.
THAT ISN'T WHAT THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT
this is simply talking about what users get when they get their creature released.

endrolled • 1 February 2024 at 1:25 AM

i don't have much to contribute to this conversation but i just wanted to say i wholeheartedly agree that more credit and compensation should be given for designers. it's part of why as much as i'd like to submit creature concepts, i'm reluctant to do so.

powgal15 • 3 February 2024 at 10:10 PM

I totally agree with you!! I've been thinking about something like this as well, it would be nice 😸