The Official Species Rerelease Discussion

barbyka • 29 July 2015 at 2:41 PM

@despair

I got a Drakomo, just because someone got it in the Oasis and already had the 'original' one. But I paid over 500 cc for it, which I think it's pretty big for only endangered creature (even it was engendered a long time ago). But before the oasis nobody wanted to trade them, especially eggs.

So I'm all for a re-release, but in sensible way.

@raccoon

You're right, that they'd have to figure out a way to block side account abuse. Maybe by linking accounts? That's been suggested too. Or maybe limit with the IP? Like the cave....you get a steal/visit (whatever they decide) but then this IP can't do anything for a few hours. So if there are more players on one IP they'd have to make an agreement between themselves when one is going to take a chance.

Hope that's clear and makes sense 😊

metaphor • 29 July 2015 at 2:45 PM

I think @iceiceice makes a good point that is kind of the heart of the issue here: there is a great gap between the young and the old.

The older players have been here through almost every creature release. They've seen which creatures area big hit right from the start and are therefore consistently sought after and which creatures the community gives a resounding "meh" about. New users don't have this benefit. When they first join, they may browse the archive to see what Egg Cave is all about, what the art is like and so on. They fall in love with creatures based on the quality of art and their own personal preference (obviously a reptile/amphibian person may be more partial to something like the Grizzard or Ribbert than, say, a cat person). Worth doesn't really come into play when they determine what creatures they want, at least not initially. Objectively, though, some creatures are just more attractive to users young and old than others. People tend to fall in love the Macbot before they fall in love with, I don't know, the Parlock (I'm sure there's a devoted Parlock following somewhere here, though!). That's where the demand issue comes in. Parlocks are not terribly plentiful from what I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong), but it's more because the demand for them is pretty specific, whereas people seek out glossier creatures like Florns and Tines and Foos in greater numbers.

I think I went off on a tangent, and I apologize.

@bluewolf

To be fair--and this where I may sound blunter than I really mean to--nobody is asking for free handouts, really. Nobody is demanding that tines be re-released every February for days on end. There is a gray area. I just don't think it's practical to withhold most of the site's creatures from new users if the site is going to grow. I know Egg Cave is its own site and is therefore hard to compare to others, but it isn't uncommon for other pet sites to retire items/pets/whatever for years and then bring them back in small batches before retiring them again. And yes, they do go up in value again if they are in high enough demand. That's what I think most people are asking for.

The thing is, if something is meant to be very, very valuable and highly sought after, it will usually stay that way. An increase in supply may disturb the balance momentarily, but if something is truly as elusive and as special as it is made out to be, its value will be retained again and again. That's why buying up junk items on other sites in bulk to make them artificially inflate in price temporarily backfires quickly. Nobody is asking for them, but they continue to flow into the market, resulting in a lasting surplus.

iceiceice • 29 July 2015 at 2:46 PM

(I rambled a little, but I hope you still get my point. I'll edit it later)

Copy and paste from another topic:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When I look at EggCave now, I see a big gap between "new" users who trying to trade for their wishlist and "old" users who's been here quite a while.

1) Old users who has been here a while have most of their wishlist achieved.
-> Thus, they don't trade as much
-> If they do, they're trading for those "ultimate" dreamies (The ones that you can get once in a blue moon by luck).
-> Ultimate dreamies are difficult to get because they reside in inactive coves or coves that have already been "completed."
-> Old users usually already have the resources to get the current CC critters by themselves.

2) New users enter eggcave with a bunch of commons. Not many people are searching for commons.
-> Yes, it's possible for them to build up their cove to a certain extent, but it's difficult for them to get anywhere beyond that without any help.
-> old users are trading their valuable critters to get more valuable critters
-> new users who are looking for the old users 'valuable' critters are unable to obtain them because they do not have the "more valuable critters" the old users are looking for

Older users looks for even older critters -> older critters are rarely in circulation anymore -> new users have a difficult time trading because old users who are trading valuable critters are normally looking for even more valuable critters = trade stagnant. Cycle continues.

Give a chance for people to have retired critters. *a chance* so it can give a little boost in trading. Nothing happens in the trade center much anymore because people don't want to trade and can't get they want...

Re-release critters (you don't even have to make them common or permanently make them available) can probably close the gap. New users get a chance to trade to get what they need. Some old people will leave, newbies people will come in, "new" players will take the old players spot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Furthermore, we haven't come to a conclusion on how the rerelease is going to happen. Getting the rerelease could still be a challenge. It's not like they're going to all become cave commons.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No one is willing to trade [a particular creature] because it's not in circulation in the trade anymore.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 2:48 PM

@barbyka

500 is alot, but the value has definitely lowered. When they were in the cave, Drakomo's weren't really worth anything, obviously. They retired and I happened to have two of them. I traded both of my last stages for 1.5k CC. I remember it clearly. They go to the Oasis and, while 500 is still "high", it is definitely lower than what they were going for.

Orderedchaos • 29 July 2015 at 2:53 PM

I'm curious now. Has the drop in value decreased the demand or desire to own a Drakomo or other endangered creature?

okami • 29 July 2015 at 2:53 PM

@metaphor

It basically is asking for a given handout when one wants a 10k cc valued creature to become available to the public.

The 'newbies' now will have creatures that are highly sought after in a few years. It's just about waiting for the value to increase, as older users have done.

I don't care if people criticize my opinions. My main point is that this site has advertised their creatures as being retired forever without question up till now. If they don't stick to their word, that ruins the credibility of their advertisements. Advertise creatures from here on out as potentially being rereleased in the future, but past creatures being rereleased would be lying.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 2:56 PM

@Orderedchaos

For me, yes. I'm not even bothering trading for one because I k ow I can just get one anytime I want. With a little elbow-grease or Oasis stalking, I can obtain one easily.

netherling • 29 July 2015 at 2:57 PM

@Ian
I honestly love this idea. People want to be upset about their cove not being so rare anymore, but the things is, re releases will make a lot of people happy. So if someone's cove isn't super rare anymore, its ok. People are trying to get around $80-$90 dollars worth of CC for creatures, and re releases would take down that insane price to things more reasonable. The rarity wouldn't be destroyed, like some people want to claim, it would just be lessened slightly. And with the amounts of CC some people are asking, that would be a really good thing.


@bluewolf
Look, we get what you're saying. But think about this, it took a while for creatures to gain value, and even though the ones now will eventually become as wanted as a Doovoo and a Nym, those creatures that are rare now will be even harder to get and probably almost nonexistent by then. A re release would make a lot of people happy, as well as make some upset, but eventually it'll make thing even again. The asking prices are ridiculous, and re-releasing creatures would take that down. So what if people don't fawn over others coves as much anymore? I'm sure that the site would gain from this. New users would have more hope, people would finally have their dream cove within realistic reach.

rosaline_kaye • 29 July 2015 at 2:58 PM

Okay guys, look.

Just because you're a new kid doesn't mean you can have the cove of your dreams. You need to put some work into it. Find the right creatures to trade, and find the right people to trade with. Some players have achieved their goals on this website, even though they were new.

Once again. EggCave states that CC creatures will be retired forever, just like bluewolf states. They should stick to their word.

You won't get your dream cove in a day. It'll take a while. Put some time and effort into it. You'll get there soon.

metaphor • 29 July 2015 at 2:58 PM

@bluewolf

Mmmm, no, not really. People are saying that they wouldn't mind if we actually had to work to get older LEs--for instance, through quests. Personally, I don't think old LEs should just be thrown back into the cave just like that either, which is why I did mention in my first post that I would have to think of a way to make it fair for everyone. Several people here have suggested quests, games, contests--all means that would require people to expend some effort to reap the prize. I see that as most people actually wanting to make the whole thing fun and challenging and fair for everyone rather than a chance to render every old LE completely worthless.

It's not that I don't believe in working for anything--and it seems other people feel the same way.

And again, not a personal attack, just offering my perspective.

immortalraven • 29 July 2015 at 3:01 PM

Thanks for considering this first off.

I think if done reasonably that it would work. Heck I have seen many older players say that when the Florn and such were re-released that it didn't really bring their value down. Now I wasn't there but that is what I've seen quite a few say.

I like the idea of quest/missions for LE re-release. I think CCs should be limited and in the cash shop for more than they were first released for. I don't think people should be able to get more than of the same critter re-released at a time. So others have more of a chance and there isn't an overflow of them.

I don't believe people will altogether stop trading. For one some might have to trade for CC to get the critter they want and I know a lot who are slightly impatient like me where I don't like waiting. I'd rather try and get one now than to wait for whenever that particular critter I really want is re-released since I'm sure they aren't gonna do a ton of different critters at a time. Also if there is a limit and someone only got it to trade and some didn't get that critter before the time frame or amount of that species could be adopted then the ones that didn't get it will want to trade for those.

People still want Oasis critters and still want to trade for em. Yes their values have gone down though I have only seen the Drakomo go down significantly. I still see Aerlos and Bunthoffs go around the same. Though these used to be commons and still harder to get from when they were commons. These aren't exactly like regular LEs and CC critters since they were available in the cave much longer and they are continually in the Oasis. I don't believe it is planned to be like that for CC or regular LE critters. Taigrin and Sorien and Diablos I've seen go more than what they were in the cave and the others are still more from when they went for when traded when they were in the cave.

Also it is literally impossible to get some critters on here in the stage some want. Take Doovoo egg, I'm pretty sure there are only two. Now those are most likely /never/ going to be traded. Now how is that fair if there is no chance to get that. I know some people that would love and die to have one but they don't even bother to put it on their wishlist cause there is no point. I am glad I don't want one because of this but I feel bad for those who really do. There is really no point in trying to get those and putting in work to find those when you find that their are only two which new users don't know right when they join.

I believe in hard work. I worked hard on my cove and I have spent money on this cove. I will still trade CC, older critters and such. I will still trade for critters I do seek and such. And I know others that are like me. And not everyone could get the re-released critters so then those will still look for em.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 3:02 PM

Even if there was a "fair" way to implement a re-release, it's going against what Eggcave said.

They clearly stated that the creatures would not become available anymore. They need to stick to that claim and not stray from what they have told us for many years.

iceiceice • 29 July 2015 at 3:04 PM

@rosaline_kaye

True. It takes some work and I agree with you. I expect them to work for their wishlist.

But the thing is, some of their"dreamies" are not in circulation anymore. No one is bothering to trade them.

There are no "supplies" to trade for. If there is, they're probably asking for "older" dreamies.

That's my main concern.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oasis only offers a chance to get the creature. It's not the cave.

People are still trading for them even if the value is lowered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, I do share the concern about the "retiring forever" thing

lykhaos117 • 29 July 2015 at 3:04 PM

Also, I think that the important thing to consider, regardless of the final outcome, is the principles by which Egg Cave stands by. According to the FAQ, Egg Cave is a fun adoptables web site where you can adopt creatures, share them, take care of them, and make new friends. I believe that everyone, regardless of their opinion on rereleases, cares about these principles on some level. Neither side is inherently selfish as both have some points centered on community principles and others on personal satisfaction.

Many users supporting rereleases claim that some creatures they want are almost impossible to obtain and therefore should be made more easily available whereas users against it claim that it would lower their values (both in terms of actual price and sense of personal achievement from owning a rare creature), thus violating Egg Cave's traditional manner of sharing creatures (working hard to trade), and possibly severely detrimenting trading as @despair stated that some users may be reluctant to trade if they believe a creature will be rereleased.

What would really be useful are some statistics. What percentage of valuable creatures (Onnys, Biwos, Tines, etc.) are in active coves, and what are the exact numbers of them in existence? How many active users does Egg Cave currently have, and what's the temporal distribution of when said users joined? Since Egg Cave is a community, data on its members would help provide all of us with an idea of how a rerelease would affect us, for the better or for the worse.

@iceiceice
@raccoon

Thank you for supporting my account anniversary gift idea! ❤️

metaphor • 29 July 2015 at 3:05 PM

@despair

Well, to be fair, @ian did mention in his first post that creatures were never meant to be retired and then forever unobtainable. Now, is that a lack of foresight on his part? Probably. But I understand what he's saying as well and would be willing to hear him and others out about re-releases because I see the issue not just as a fairness thing, but also an issue of practicality. An economy that is never allowed to waver stays stagnant, which is kind of boring and which drives people away.

@lykhaos117

Perfectly well-said. At the end of the day, I am genuinely not trying to insult anyone or make their views seem less valid than my own. I just have a different vision for the site than others. Some users think similarly as I do, and others don't, which is perfectly fine. I respect others' concerns even if I don't fully agree with them. Any counterpoints I make aren't meant to be personal attacks, just explanations as to why I think the way I do.

Deleted • 29 July 2015 at 3:09 PM

@Ian

First of all, I must say, I'm glad to see the idea is being seriously taken into consideration, because I truly believe that, If done in the correct way, it could bring a lot of positive things for both the site & the users playing in it.
So, thank you very much for considering it & hearing from us users. 😊

I shall re-post some my older posts / thoughts about the idea to make my position clear: I agree & support creatures' re-relases, but only If it's done in a responsible way, because, of course, I know people paid real money for some creatures.

Although creatures like tines were, originally, cave creatures. I wouldn't mind seeing them re-relase in a very little amount in the Cash Shop Park for CC.

Now, to re-post old stuff. xD

" Like, it's not re-relases have to be something like all the creatues relases for a day, even I would oppose that. But wouldn't you find a nice idea to see a creature's re-relase, for a short amount of time or for a higher price? It's nice to archieve difficult task, but it's bitter to not have the chance to even try to do them. Like, most older creatures are dead (I've saw just one or two macbots eggs around, of course not for trade)... wouldn't it be nice to give younger users a chance to get those creatures (as a difficult task)? It's not like I'm telling re-relases mean free creatures... personally, I think it wouldn't ruin the economy, but the contrary, as it'd make trading for older creature at least more bearable. "


" I paid A LOT for my 1st stage oscoa and all, but I wouldn't mind to see them re-relased for their original price, or for higher CC price. 'Cause just because I do have one, I don't think others don't have the right to just 'cause they wouldn't acquire it spending the same I did. "




After telling this... I think a creature like a tine shouldn't cost 15k CC in last stage. I mean, I really want people to realize a super duper high price like this isn't normal at all.
Decreasing a little their value won't be the end of the world (and it's not said re-relases will decrese values anyways... I mean, foos were re-relased and they're still as pricey ad they were in the past).

So I also support the idea of "creating" a creatures' value sheet, so users can know how much a creature is worth (and new users would be able to trade without being tricked, a thing I commonly see somtimes, sadly). Having someting like that, an absolute value guide, would "balance" things and make trading more fair for everyone, don't you think?

despair • 29 July 2015 at 3:11 PM

@metaphor

Regardless of whether or not that was his intention, that was what was said, like you said a lack of foresight.

If they were going to do re-releases, this should have been something that was stressed could happen. 6 years in and then all of those "retired forever" creatures could become available again? That's what doesn't seem fair to me.

@lykhaos117

I agree, I do want people to have fun. That's the main focus of the website. It isn't a business, we're not here work. Fun is the name of the game.

But based on what Eggcave has stated in the past, I still cling strongly to objection of a re-release.

okami • 29 July 2015 at 3:12 PM

Like @despair said, even though I'm sure there are ways to rerelease creatures fairly, it'd be lying. I really think that starting next month, start advertising creatures as being potentially rereleased. But don't go back on the word that past creatures would be retired forever.

rosaline_kaye • 29 July 2015 at 3:12 PM

@iceiceice

Well, I guess you have to deal with that. We have worked hard for these critters. We aren't just going to trade them right off the bat.

There are always going to be "supplies" available. Events are still going to be coming around. You can get your "supplies" there.

@wererage

A creature value list like in the past made by frosted (i think) would help immensely. everyone could have some sight on how much creatures are worth.

netherling • 29 July 2015 at 3:16 PM

@rosaline_kaye
Ok yeah, it says they'll be retired forever. But bringing them back, if done responsibly, could be a good thing. Trading for older creatures is hard, especially when people want older creatures for their older creatures. Or tons of money. And looking at these posts, more people want a re-release than people who dont. This could work. Just have an open mind.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 3:17 PM

To add something, I know personally, that if creatures start becoming re-released I'm going to just not trade and wait for the creature I want to be released again. Eggcave has relied on creature values for too long, I think it would be, as I stated previously, a huge gamble. They should have done this from the beginning not 6 years in.

rosaline_kaye • 29 July 2015 at 3:18 PM

@ami_utsukushii

Like I said.

It may be hard, but put some time and effort into it. You'll get there. I started off with a Puffup. I participated in events, got LE's, traded them for CC, saved up, then traded with people with that.

I just highly disapprove of this.

okami • 29 July 2015 at 3:21 PM

@ami_utsukushii

Just because more people want it than not doesn't mean it's right. For me, this is about how rereleasing creatures that were said to be retired forever would be a lie. It would discredit things advertised on here.

If 'newbies', or anyone in general, want a better chance at trading for older creatures, I think a better idea would be to occasionally release some new and very very rare, limited time creatures in the cave. That way, they have something 'worth' a lot that they can start trading upwards towards their goal.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 3:26 PM

Not to mention that "rarity" is user-based.

I'm against re-releasing creatures in the first place. Not necessarily just because "it'll make my cove worth nothing. D:"

There's creatures I want I don't have that I probably won't be able to get, this certainly doesn't mean I want a re-release. I'll just keep trying, even if I never get it.

Chances come and go, that's just life,

raccoon • 29 July 2015 at 3:30 PM

@despair

Yes, chances come and go, but what about us who don't even get a chance at all?

I don't want handouts, I want a chance to actually obtain the creatures I want without having to spend a ton of real life cash on an egg that is just a pile of pixels.

rosaline_kaye • 29 July 2015 at 3:32 PM

I wish there was a "quote this post" button.

I'm not worried about my cove being worth nothing as well. It is just that I've worked extremely hard for my creatures. It won't be fair to let other players get them without work.

Just because it is hard to obtain my "dream" creatures, doesn't mean I want a re-release as well.

despair • 29 July 2015 at 3:33 PM

@raccoon

I understand your dilemma, but the point still stands that Eggcave needs to stick to it's word.

I'm betting that the reason most people even want certain creatures in the first place is just because they're considered "rare."

Edit:

Another thing is that supporters seem to flock to "I'm not asking for handouts" Getting a creature through a fun event is a handout. Sorry.

netherling • 29 July 2015 at 3:33 PM

@rosaline_kaye
I may not have been on the site as long as you, but I've been on for a while. I have put effort into it. Ever since i started on the site. But as the years go by, creatures got harder and harder to get, and what could've gotten me a dreamie back then is nothing compared to what could get me one now. I know you worked hard, i understand that completely, but you had more time than some people. You got a chance to get certain creatures that would be what it takes to get something else. I'm trying to find out how to word that better but that's what i have.

@bluewolf
Ok yeah, it says forever, but think about the site. There would be an increase in a lot of things that could cause more users to come in and stay, hope would rise, just...a lot of things. Even if you don't think its right, good can come from it, and a lot of other people think it's right. It depends on the person.

okami • 29 July 2015 at 3:35 PM

@ami_utsukushii

It's still completely lying if things that were retired forever are rereleased. If I understand correctly, forever means eternally, not 6 or so years.

dawnfur • 29 July 2015 at 3:37 PM

No matter how much people sit here and argue, someone will not agree. Either they do or they don't rerelease.

I know people will disagree with me. I don't honestly care. We look like children not wanting to share our toys, honestly.